Many companies focus on product and forget about the value of brand…
But when you rethink your approach to brand, you can transform your company…
My guest, Kevin Susman, is the VP of Brand and Communications at MATRIXX Software.
My guest Hernan Tagliani is the president of The Group Advertising, a multicultural, multidisciplinary advertising and digital marketing agency.
In this episode, he’ll share his expertise on commercial innovation, digital transformation, and strategy.
He’ll cover:
- The difference between “new” and “innovative”
- How brand contributes to the customer experience
- What companies miss when they overfocus on product
- How a bad customer experience hurts your brand
- And more
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Voiceover: This is Performance Delivered, Insider Secrets for Digital Marketing Success with Steffen Horst and Dave Antil.Steffen Horst: Welcome to the Performance Delivered Insider Secrets for Digital Marketing Success podcast, where we talk with marketing and agency executives and learn how they build successful businesses and their personal brand. I'm your host, Steffen Horst. The topic for today's episode is commercial innovation, digital transformation and strategy. Here to speak with me is Kevin Susman, who is the VP of Brand and Communications at MATRIXX Software. MATRIXX Software delivers a modern convergent charging and commerce solution proven at scale. As a member of the executive leadership team, Kevin architects and manifests the voice of the company. Scaffolding upon his track record of overseeing go to market strategy for leading brands, Kevin regularly engages as a consultant to MATRIXX customers, helping them realize the art of the possible with the digital transformation. Prior to joining MATRIXX, Kevin delivered branding, strategy and creative for names such as Microsoft, Starbucks, Hitachi, Aflac, to name a few. Kevin, welcome to the show.Kevin Susman: Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to be here, Steffen.Steffen: Now, before we start talking about digital transformation, strategy and commercial innovation, tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself. How did you get started in your career? And what led you to being the VP of Brand and Communication at MATRIXX Software?Kevin: You know, everyone has a winding road, you know, every podcast I listened to you, you hear people talk about these strange left turns that showed up in their lives. And I suppose mine is similar. I actually studied theater in college. I was a designer and a director. And realized shortly after graduating from college that a life of making art but living in poverty wasn't exactly all I thought it was going to be. And so I decided, my genius idea was I would go to work in the film industry where I could use my creative kind of sensibilities, and I could do theater on the side. I was young and naive at the time. And that led me to my first job and my first real kind of career move in animation. I worked at Disney Feature Animation. And I spent about 10 years working in Hollywood. So I got a great kind of training in production on the one hand. Collaboration, and one of the things that's really great about both the theater world, but also the film world, at least in the animation side is it's a highly collaborative art form. So you're very dependent on very large teams. And, and I was really lucky, I got to work on a lot of really great movies. I worked on Hercules and Mulan for Disney Feature Animation. And I'm actually in the movie, Hercules. I am a dead soul at the end of the movie. So if you ever do watch it, I'm a caricature of me as a dead soul pulling Meg down into the Well of Dead Souls. And then I was a digital effects producer on Titanic, which was a fantastic learning experience. And I actually, I do a guest lecture at times on family systems theory that talks about my experience working on the movie Titanic. Because it's such a great learning experience about working in extraordinarily high pressure environments where you don't really know how you're going to get to the end. And then I worked on Stuart Little for Sony Pictures. Wound up, my last studio gig was for Nickelodeon. I was a supervising producer on a ride movie for Universal Studios. And, and then I kind of grew a little disenchanted with the film business. It's a great business, and the process is fantastic. But for people who work in it, and if anyone who listens to your podcast works in the film business, you'll know it's a grueling industry to work in. And I had a young child at the time and it didn't really work for me. And I stumbled into consulting when I got hired by Hewlett Packard to rebrand a business unit. And I'm not really entirely sure how I became a marketing consultant, except in my very first meeting with my client, I was introduced as their marketing consultant. And I said, oh, great, that must be what I do now. That started about a 10 year journey of building an independent marketing agency, and strategy, doing strategy and creative and really learning marketing. And I like to joke that I got paid to get my MBA, working for you know, a lot of these companies that you named in the introduction. And I was kind of growing that and growing that business and then after about 10 years, I wanted to change. I had this great client of mine, this small software company called MATRIXX Software. And I really liked the people. I loved their strategy of, you know, their customers are in the mobile phone provider space. Telcos. Telcos, that space, I felt really needed disruption. And I really like companies that are focused on disruption and really kind of trying to break things. And we got along really well. And one of the founders, who is Jennifer Kryiakakis who is actually my boss now, set about, she was very patient with recruiting me, and recruited me to join. And that's how I found myself where I am now at MATRIXX.Steffen: That's an interesting story. Now, you obviously are working with your customers and help them or consult them in kind of realizing the digital transformation. What do you focus on when you consult with brands? And how do you help them rethink their approach to commercial strategy and innovation?Kevin: Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, a lot of it's work that I brought from my consulting days, right. So you know, I really believe that these threads, you're never quite sure how they're gonna find their way back into your work. And, you know, one of the big challenges that, you know, and I think a lot of these mobile phone carriers, even though we're so dependent upon them, and we connect to them, through, you know, the latest iPhone, or, you know, through these hyperfast connections. But they are fundamentally, they're these almost like analog companies, in many respects the way they operate. So a lot of what needs to happen with them, and a lot of what they look to me to help with, is to either validate a vision of kind of what a modern, sort of more digitally savvy company might look like, and to bring them examples outside of even their industry, right. So kind of bringing that, that kind of more diverse view of the world. And then the other thing that they look for, is they look for, fundamentally for strategy advice and strategy guidance. So maybe they understand how they want to, they want to change, they want to be more digital, but they need help with, well, what should the brand's strategy be that we're going to take to market in order to make this sort of transformation make sense financially?Steffen: Now, how far do you take that digital transformation? What is part of that?Kevin: So obviously, you know, when you, depending upon the company, right, these are huge endeavors, you know, there may be hundreds of companies, so that are involved. So our piece is the monetization piece of it. So I like to think that we're probably the most important part only because we are the wallet. And at the end of the day, all of this is around making money. But the other side that people kind of forget about the wallet is, you know, the wallet is what determines how rich your customer experience can be. Because if you can't get to the wallet, then you know, it's going to really substantially impact how your commercial relationship with your customers is going to look like. Right? So a lot of the work that I do is, is it that foundational strategy, and that kind of product design. So, you know, for example, with one of our customers, right now, I'm working directly with their product team. And, you know, we're mapping out what a digital future might look like for them, in terms of kind of really reinventing how they engage with customers. All the way down to you know, I worked with a customer of ours in Singapore, I did their brand strategy for go to market, they sort of knew what they wanted to do. But they didn't know how to tie it all together into something that would make sense that they could then take to market and be a compelling, you know, sort of brand promise to their customers.Steffen: Now, the companies out there, or people out there that confuse new with innovative. How would you want them to think about them? How do you define new versus innovative?Kevin: You know, so it's funny, I just came out of a meeting where we were talking about this very problem, and we were actually talking about it in the context of 5g. But it's, the example that I always love to give to people. And this is where I give the disclaimer. So I actually am on my third BMW i3, right, but I always like to ask people the question at the beginning of an innovation workshop, you know, is a BMW i3, is it new or is it innovative? And I'll even ask you that question. Because, hey, it's a conversation. Right? So what do you think? Is it new or is it innovative?Steffen: That's a good question. I don't think it's either of those to be honest, because it's been in the market for quite a long time. Obviously, it's no longer produced. I don't think what the car is necessarily on what it has is new. There's nothing kind of indicateurs new you could say hey, I just bought it because it came out of the factory. So it's a new car. But is it innovative? Definitely not.Kevin: Well, it definitely, so if you looked at 2012 right when it was delivered, when it was, first came to market, if you looked at it through that lens, would you say to the new question.Steffen: I would probably say it's an innovative solution. Because for me back then, 2012, electric cars weren't kind of all around so to speak. It was something completely new that the manufacturer pushed out to kind of engage with a new audience.Kevin: So what's interesting is now what if I tell you that the Tesla Model S also came out in 2012? Would it change your view of whether the i3 was innovative or not?Steffen: Again, it depends on what the car in particular have? Are there certain things in the car that the Tesla, for example, doesn't have?Kevin: So here's my perspective, right? So my perspective is that if you look over the arc of the market, ironically, you actually answered what I would say at the end of the day, right? Which is that the BMW i3, when it came out, I think it was a really new car. But fundamentally, the ownership experience itself was the same as owning any other car. Had a new propulsion system, a lot of really innovative components, right? If you're, again, I'm on my third one. Carbon fiber is heavily integrated, you know, so a lot of new technologies that they deployed. But the actual final end product that they brought to market was new, because it was essentially a car as you would buy any other car. And as you pointed out, it's been discontinued in the United States. They were never able to find market traction, whereas the Tesla Model S has defined the category of what an electric car can be. And the reason why is because they completely reimagined the ownership experience, right? So on the one hand, you have a car that's constantly evolving. So the idea of a mobile platform that's constantly changing, that didn't exist prior to the Model S. The car you bought was the car that you owned, for the life of the car. Maybe there'd be an occasional software update, but no new functionality was being substantially, you know, kind of enriched. And then the buying experience as well, right. The fact that you buy, essentially they sell direct to consumer, there's not really a dealership network, completely different. And in fact, there's still states in the United States where you cannot buy a Tesla. You have to purchase it in another state, and then bring it across the state lines. So I think the reason why I think that's such a great example, at least from my perspective, is this. That really, it gets down to what that definition is of innovation itself. And, and I think what it really comes down to is this, the fundamental reimagining of the established way of doing things. And that's the definition of innovation that I like to use in workshops and with the customers that I work with. Because I think it helps establish a better baseline that we can work against, right. It's nothing wrong with new, I mean, Apple's done a fantastic job of monetizing new, right. I mean, anyone who saw their latest quarterly reports, right, they print money off of marketing new. But the iPhone 14 is not innovative. The first iPhone was innovative, right? Air pods, when they first came out, were innovative, maybe. You could argue whether they were, whether they were not, right. But tremendous job and great execution still works. But it's important to understand which business am I in? Am I in the business of selling something that's new, and just constantly improving it and monetizing it? Or am I really trying to be in a business that's driving change and innovation?Steffen: Yeah, yeah. Now, we move on to the next part, which is, what's the difference between brand and product? And how each of those contribute to the customer experience?Kevin: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I think one of the things that's most challenging about brand is we use this word, it's used all the time, and it's kind of used interchangeably. Sometimes it's a logo, sometimes it's, you know, it's used interchangeably for the name of the company. Sometimes it's something softer and fuzzy. Or some people think that brand is essentially just, you know, fancy words and pretty pictures as, as my designer friends like to joke. You know, I really think that the distinction between the two is important though, because we sell them differently. And I think, you know, when you think about what a product is, and you think about it from a customer's perspective. You know, the example that I always like to give in workshops is, you know, I'll put up a picture of a handbag, and actually, it'll have three different handbags on it, they're all black, and they all look exactly alike, except one of those handbags is $29, one of them's $1,000 and one of them's $8,000. And the product is the same. The product is still a handbag and you know the only kind of funny add that I'll make on top of it is that I was doing a workshop at Nordstrom years ago, and I mistakenly called it a purse and everybody thought it was hilarious, right. So you know when a man is doing a presentation about a handbag. And all of those handbags are fundamentally the same from a product perspective. Now you could have, we could have a debate about you know, is an Hermes handbag, better material or better craftsmanship than a LeSportsac, right? Well, it really lasts longer. You know, we can have that discussion and you know, maybe it will maybe it won't. But is an Hermes made better than a Louis Vuitton? Is it made better than, you know, Anne Klein? You know, so there's even in the different sort of luxury brand categories. The product is, is something that does something. And it's really judged against this kind of definable ROI, right, so the customer is making an ROI assessment. Am I getting my money's worth against the buying criteria that are important to me. And it's really dependent on that kind of, you know, we use in marketing, we use the value proposition. It gets so misused. But because value proposition is based on the idea that there is a transaction. I'm giving my money out, and I'm expecting something in return. And that's the value proposition and that's what the product delivers. The thing that really separates the brand, is the emotional experience that people attach to it. And, and I think what people don't kind of fully understand is that both of those exist together in unison, but they have really different objectives. And you know, because the brand is about the kind of the promises you make, and everybody focuses on the promises part. But the part that I always hear people leave out is, is that those promises, create expectations. And the brands that are successful, understand how to manage the expectations, and deliver on the expectations. They don't just make the promise, right, and promises are easy. It's how do we deliver on the expectations. And then what happens is, is those that brand promise that delivers, creates those expectations are then validated by the value propositions that the product delivers. And then that reinforces the promise of the brand. And then that becomes this kind of self sustaining cycle in brands that work. And, you know, it's the example I always give people in workshops, and you know, I'll, I'll put up a just like a statement, you know, and I just in the spirit of dialogue, I'll ask you. Which is, what's the brand that says you'll survive a car crash?Steffen: That's what I'm driving. A Volvo. Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Steffen: But I think you're absolutely right. Where you're going with that, obviously, it's like, it's a brand makes us feel something. Makes us think something. If you think about when we take the handbag example, right? Why does my wife want to have a Chanel handbag? Because it's what the brand Chanel stands for. Now, it doesn't really cost $1,500? Is that really the value? Or is it being produced for $50 but because they slept on the two C's and everything else, and all the sudden it has that value? It's not only the value that the handbag has, it's like how it makes you feel, right? When you go out with the product into the world and people see you carrying it, how does the brand reflect on you by you being associated to that brand, right?Kevin: That's right, that's right. What is does this brand reflect me? How does it, what does it say about me? What does it say about my values? Right? What does it say about my station in life? You know, what's the, there's one of the brands I forget which one it is, it's like you've earned it. I mean, that was literally like, a campaign that they used. And of course, now I can't remember which, I think it might have been Louis Vuitton, could have been Chanel. I don't remember which now. Somebody who was more facile with marketing campaigns is gonna laugh that I don't remember this, right. But, this is, what you described is fundamentally the difference between product and brand. And, so the thing that happens, though, is that too many companies, especially in the tech space, I'd say that, for the most part, you know, companies that are in the, for example, in the fashion space are maybe a little bit more savvy to this. But definitely in the tech space, they focus more on the product, and they don't understand the value of brand. And so you know, where that becomes really problematic from a marketing perspective. And from a strategy perspective, what I see is that you know, there's this ludicrous, well ludicrous to me, debate between, you know, the, I've heard it said that, you know, there's brand and then there's demand. And you know, as though there's somehow some firewall that exists between the product itself and then the fluffy brand people. And when brand is working and is properly integrated into the product and into the product marketing and into the product strategy, they become inseparable. And, you know, the best example of this is, if you, I don't know if you saw I think it was, it was sometime middle of last year, Airbnb came out and they were talking about the fact that they've invested in brand advertising as opposed to demand generation. Because the majority of their customers are coming direct to the website. So they're not going, you know, through performance channels. And so they're really just using, you know, ad buys, you know, and sort of keyword optimization as a way to fill the gap, as opposed to building the funnel. And I think that's really where it becomes kind of a critical differentiator.Steffen: I think when that discussion came, from my perspective, it also drew some false conclusions because it all of a sudden said you shouldn't necessarily invest in performance marketing to drive sales, you just have to do brand awareness. Now I think where Airbnb has the advantage is, the name Airbnb is so I don't know if saturated is the right word in English, but everyone knows Airbnb. I mean, I would say that very few people don't need or don't know, Airbnb, right? So they go to a website directly. So what now they're doing is they're building this fluffy, air quotes fluffy, parts of how people feel about Airbnb, the experience and everything else. That's what their brand advertising does at the moment. When we talk about the other parts, let's go back to the handbag part, right. Between a $29.95 handbag that looks exactly the same, like the $1500 handbag, you know. The difference there is, if you don't invest in your brand, you are exchangeable. There is another brand out there that sells you the same one maybe for $25.95. Looks exactly the same thing. So all of a sudden, you're off the market, because you don't have anything but the product, and the product alone has not enough pull to actually, you know, compete with the same product that cost $25.95.Kevin: You're exactly right. You're exactly right. And you know, it's even, it's funny, as you were, as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, that maybe for people who who are not handbag aficionados, honestly, you could really look at the NFT market that's sort of still struggling to kind of survive the crypto winter. But if you look at, you know, Bored Ape Yacht Club, which is, you know, sort of the poster child and the fantasy illusion of what everyone could have with an NFT. If you actually look across open sea at any given even during the peak, the majority of NFTs were not making any money. Right? And I think it's yet another example, right? It's that would be the the blockchain example of the exact same thing, which is that, you know, if I happen to have one of those apes as my avatar, it gave me social capital that I didn't get if I had, you know, I of course, now, I can't think of any, you know, NFT projects that failed. There are plenty. So insert NFT project, that did not succeed, right. But, you're exactly right. And it is coming down to this question of like, how are you creating, and reinforcing the perception of value for your customer? And I think, I think that gets lost a lot of times. Because I think what happens is, and I've seen this, and you've probably seen this with some of your clients as well. What I see is, is that either we over focus on the product for the capabilities itself, right. Especially in tech, that's a big problem. But you see this in so many different industries. But we also forget that we have to keep selling the value. So that Chanel handbag is not only valuable at the point of sale, right? I don't have to just convince you to spend $1,500, you know, or $2,000, you know. Someone who knows Chanel pricing is probably laughing that we're saying $1,500 or $2,000 right now. Like what handbag, are you buying guys? You know, I have to now keep reinventing, and keep reinserting value into the perception. I have to keep building brand value, right? That's what brand equity really is. Brand equity is that, that $1,500 that I spent six months ago, yeah, that was, I'm still getting my money's worth out of it. And I think a lot of people and a lot of companies, sort of, they lose sight of that. Right. And I refer to it in the workshops that I do, I talk about it as building walled gardens of value. Right. And it's, it's how are you constantly creating opportunities to remind your customer that their decision to become your customer was the right one. And too many companies, you know, they'll, you know, marketing is segregated, for example, right will be single will be responsible for, you know, we'll call it demand generation, for lack of a better word, right. But will, they're charged with filling the funnel, but they're not necessarily part of retention, which is, in my maybe humble opinion, I think that's the wrong approach. The approach should be that every opportunity to market to a customer is an opportunity to remind them of the value, right. That walled garden of value. And then, you know, for my friends and colleagues who share a view similar to mine, that word of mouth marketing is the most effective form of marketing, right? That also now gives your customers fuel to talk to their friends and to their network and to share whatever their channel right? Whether they're sharing it on TikTok, or, you know, Insto, or they're snapping their friends, right, because they want to use your, you know, your filter. Doesn't really matter. What matters is just that we have to be thinking about the fact that we're constantly having to re engage and redeliver, you know, kind of that perception.Steffen: And I couldn't agree more with that. Because it cost companies enough to acquire a new customer, you know, so to not constantly engage with them to build a stronger relationship than you had on a day when they first bought from you, is just basically just wrong. Because you're losing money. You know, you might not be even able to turn a profit on your first sale, because it cost so much to get that person into the door. So why would you then not find numerous ways to engage with that person, provide value, build, as you said, the brand, so that they, without much of a nudge, come back to you and buy 1, 2, 3, 4 or how many times again, from you.Kevin: That's right. That's right. And I think the problem is, there's so many problems, right. But coming back to your early, you know, you asked me earlier a little bit about digital transformation. Part of the problem is, is that so many of these analog companies, especially their, their silos are built based on the way that their different channels used to function in an offline world. Right. So, managing a store is a whole sort of beast on its own right, which is different than I've got to have a website, right. And that's a whole beast on its own. So the idea that, that you're collapsing all of those channels into a single point of engagement, especially if you think about in a modern, fully digital world, right is, it's the app is the point of sale, it's your point of marketing, it's your everything. And, and too many companies don't think of that, you know, and really view that as that kind of that Northstar of like, how do we constantly deliver value? And how do we deliver the same value and experience across channels? I mean, and there's so many examples that we've all had that are so frustrating, you know. I was at a, I recently got an iPhone 14, and I don't even remember the problem, but I'm standing in the store. And, I'm talking to the associate because I had to solve the problem in the store. And they're telling me something completely different than the chat support person told me, you know, two hours before. And I'm literally showing the person on my phone the chat, oh, well, we don't have access to that. And my plug, as someone who does innovation work, I'm like, you guys should hire me. But aside from that, you know, as a consumer, I don't care that you have different systems, that is not my problem. My problem is I want what I want. I want the experience you promised me, and I want you to deliver it in every place where I engage. And too many companies, unfortunately, through a combination of, you know, sort of analog or legacy infrastructure, resistance to change, and, you know, everything in between, don't do that.Steffen: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that you say that. We had a, in a podcast episode, I don't remember who the guests was, we talked about omni channel, basically, that's what we talked about. And then one main point was that, you know, the experience online being completely different than the experience in store. So buying something online and going into store to exchange it, because it might not be the right fit, right. And then the store is just, you know, around the corner, or you pass by it. And then you can't return it, and you don't get your money back. Because they also have to ship it out and they use different systems. That drives the consumer bonkers, you know. Because they expect that you have the same brand name at your door. Like the store I bought from why can you not give me the money? Why do I have to now wait another week, two weeks, to get my money, because you just send it in and you're not connected with the main system or with the website system?Kevin: Yeah. And it's coming back to brand promise, right? I mean, how do you shatter a brand promise right? I mean, that is the shortest way to destroy brand loyalty. And it's funny. I you know, I was doing a workshop this is the first time this has ever happened, but I've had it happen since. But so maybe the first time is it stuck with me. So, you know, I did some work with Nordstrom as a consultant and, but I was doing a workshop with another company and I had this exercise at the beginning where we kind of had people respond to brand logos, right? It's free response, you can respond however you want positive, negative or neutral. And Nordstrom is a fantastic brand. Like I'm, I think they are and a lot of people, you know, view them as kind of a North Star and at least in their heyday, they were really a trendsetter. I don't know so much now, but really a trendsetter in the retail space. And I had one person who and I've never had this happen before, who was negative on Nordstrom. And of course, you know, like, who's the person who's negative on Nordstrom? And like what happened, you know? Where were you robbed there, you know, where you beaten as a child with the Nordstrom catalog? Like, what's the, what's the thing? Oh, I had one bad experience at Nordstrom, you know. I was trying to do, I had a, I don't even remember the specific customer experience problem they had. But all it took was one and it, and then they were like, yeah, I don't need to shop there anymore.Steffen: But I think this is, that's a good point. And you said earlier, word of mouth is the most effective marketing channel, right? It's the most effective marketing channel. But it can also be the most detrimental marketing channel for you. Because this just highlights exactly that point, right. And I'll give you an example. Family wanted to go to the local Cheesecake Factory, right. We waited 15 minutes and said I want to sit I don't want to sit outside etc. When we were placed they wanted to sit us outside. I said that we don't want to sit outside, you know, with little kids. And they said, okay, well, then you have to wait another 20 minutes. So I'm asking, I'm like, so why don't have to wait another 20 minutes. I mean, I was here already 20 minutes. Well you're back on the end of the line. It's like, but why? Well, because you don't want to sit outside. We left the Cheesecake Factory after that conversation. And I said to my wife, at least for a month we're not going there. And I like to go there because they have a wide variety of things, et cetera. And usually food is okay for what you pay for. But that's exactly it. Right? Small things like that interaction with that hostess created a bad experience for me. And sometimes people take it probably a little bit too far to say, well, you know, there was this one thing outside of all the great experiences I had, and because of that I'm no longer going there. Now, I'm pretty sure we'll go there again. But I gave ourselves a break for a month, at least you know. So that can be you have a great experience, you share the experience with your friends, right? That's right, I love my Volvo XC90 hybrid, you know. Shared it with my friend. Friend bought the same one because, you know, he likes the security and all the other things that comes with it, you know. But if I talk negatively about an experience about a brand, about a product, etc, to a friend that might consider buying that, that will have an impact on them buying the product.Kevin: That's right, it will. And it's such a great point. And that is the flip side, right is that if you're not delivering on that brand promise, you're creating opportunities for people to negatively reflect on your brand. And, you know, look, it's hard enough to get a new customer. Like, and even if you think about it from an if I were Cheesecake Factory, and I happened to be listening to this, I go like oh my God, if this guy's a regular customer, and you think you know, you're one use case, right? But if you think about it as a chain of scale, and you look at a company that's trying to make their quarterly numbers. And if every store has, you know, one regular customer who skips out for a month or two, you know, you're one person maybe that's not so many but you know, that becomes a scale problem that can actually shockingly, right, I mean, you can go like that can show up in an earnings report. And now they've got to reacquire you, because somebody else is now trying to keep you. Because you're gonna now take the family to another restaurant, and maybe, they're gonna do a better job. And you're gonna go, you know, I don't like I don't need to go to cheesecake now. I'm gonna go, you know, to this other restaurant. We get better service, the food's equally good. It's about the same price. And we can sit outside whenever we want.Steffen: Exactly, exactly. Kevin, I think we could continue talking about these topics more. Unfortunately, we've come to the end of today's podcast episode. Thank you so much for joining me on the Performance Delivered podcast. If people want to find out more about you, and MATRIXX Software, how can they get in touch?Kevin: So that's a great question. The best place to find me is on LinkedIn. So you know you can definitely feel free to reach out and if you want to learn more about MATRIXX Software and the innovative work and disruptive work we're doing in the telecom industry, you can visit us at matrixxsoftware.com. And, you know, I would say, for people who are not in the telco industry, it may be a little bit opaque. So if you want to understand more about actually what it is we do and you know whether our solution might be applicable in your industry, you can always ping me over at LinkedIn.Steffen: Sounds good. And as always, we'll leave that information in the show notes. Thanks, everyone for listening. If you'd like the Performance Delivered podcast, please subscribe to us and leave us a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast application. If you want to find out more about Symphonic Digital, you can visit us at symphonicdigital.com or follow us on Twitter at Symphonic HQ. Thanks again and see you next time.Voiceover: Performance Delivered is sponsored by Symphonic Digital. Discover audience-focused and data-driven digital marketing solutions for small and medium businesses at symphonicdigital.com.
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