Many early-stage companies make the mistake of jumping right into performance marketing – using paid advertising to try and generate sales and grab market share. They fail to invest in building their brand first. The result is that their marketing is less effective because there is insufficient brand awareness, reputation, or loyalty to convert potential customers.Jean-Michel Boujon is a veteran brand builder. The SVP of Global Marketing at Outdoorsy, he has over 16 years of experience and a proven track record of building brands and steering multinational marketing teams. He joins the show to explain and outline how companies need to think and act as they build their brand, including:
- Why some brands are perceived stronger than others
- What does brand marketing do that performance marketing doesn’t
- How to progress from brand persona and voice to messaging
- And more
The conversation with Jean-Michel goes from theory to practice to measuring efficacy. A must-listen for anyone involved in business development and marketing success.
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Voiceover: This is Performance Delivered. Insider secrets for digital marketing success with Steffen Horst and Dave Antil.Steffen Horst: Welcome to the Performance Delivered Insider Secrets for Digital Marketing Success podcast, where we talk with marketing and agency executives and learn how they build successful businesses and their personal brand. I'm your host, Steffen Horst. The topic for today's episode is the importance of brand building. Here speak with me is Jean-Michel Boujon, who is the SVP Global Marketing at Outdoorsy an RV rental marketplace that pairs road trips and RV ventures. Jean Michel has over 16 years of experience developing and implementing complex internet marketing plans and strategies for subscription based and retail online services. He is an entrepreneurial pioneer with a proven track record of steering multinational marketing teams at local, regional and international levels. Jean Michel, welcome to the show. Jean-Michel Boujon: Hey, hello.Steffen: Jean-Michel, before we start talking about today's topic, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. How did you get started in your career? And how did you end up in marketing?Jean-Michel: So yeah, it's an interesting it's an interesting interesting path. I've always had like you know a marketing mind but you know, when I went to school and I went to business school, you know, I understood that marketing would be can we become a very data driven industry. So at that point, I decided to study finance. So that was kind of like me paying my dues with you know, Google Sheets and everything of spreadsheets. But really to go harder, like playing with a lot of data, you know, manipulating data, analyzing data and everything so so I studied finance. I have a master in finance. But after that, I quickly quickly left the finance world. I was actually supposed to start a finance job but I got an internship after I graduated from business school in New York with the first start up, you know, I worked with. And very quickly I went back to that financial institution to tell them look, I'm not going to come work with you, I'm just going to stay in the US and, and work in marketing. But I don't regret by the way, spending, you know, three years of my life, you know, studying finance, because it's really helping me every day. You know, to to again, like manipulate a lot of data that is now by the way 20 years later, very much a thing. Data is everything marketing. So that was that was a bet I would say back then, you know, but very happy I made it.Steffen: Now, how did you end up being focused on subscription based and retail online services? Was that just naturally because of the startups you worked for?Jean-Michel: No, I think and more than you know, retail and subscription, I think like I really became a marketplace in a specialist. Because I, the challenge with marketplaces and two sided marketplaces is that you know like sometimes you will fix a problem on one side and you will create a problem on the other side you know. So you really have to understand how the dynamics and the liquidity of the marketplace works you know to be successful at it. So I like working with you know, the two sides of the ecosystem and because you have to grow it you know, like in a pretty good manner and it's more challenging so it's more fun to me. Everything goes back to the fun you know. I want to have fun you know when I when I work. I don't want everything to be a problem. So I found the marketplace is actually pretty fun to you know to work on.Steffen: Yeah, now a lot of brands in your sector, marketplace ecommerce, when when they launch or even as they progress as a company they look a lot at performance marketing. Which means you know, let's let's activate lower funnel activities to generate sales etc. They usually don't look so much at brand advertising. Why is brand advertising important to you?Jean-Michel: I mean you should start you know with the low hanging fruits and with the high intent you know user you know, like I wouldn't recommend anybody to start you know any kind of brand marketing and mass media marketing you know, as you start. But I think as you develop your brand it's very important to think about performance marketing but also developing you know your brand and we'll talk about this you know, today. But like, this is like very early you know that this is a very early stage you know, component of your success is just not try to like be very good at performance marketing. Because the best way you can be good at performance marketing is to not do any performance marketing and not pay any of your marketing. But if you want to get there you need to build your brand. So, uh, you know, that's kind of like the, you know, the the game of building, building your brand.Steffen: Yeah. Now let's let's take a step back. For you, what is a brand?Jean-Michel: I mean, you know, and I knew you would ask that question. So, I kind of looked into some definitions and I looked at Interbrand, which is a management consultant consulting firm. And, you know, they say that a brand is the sum of all expression, expressions by which an entity, a person or organization, company, business unit intends to be recognized. So, that's actually pretty interesting, because they talk about the sum. So, again, a logo is not enough, you know. You don't build your brand, if you have a good logo. They talk about the expressions, you know, in this definition. So, it really talks about, like, the non tangible, you know, elements of, of your brand. And it talks about, like, the company intends to be recognized as, because, like, at the end of the day, you know, there's only so much you controlling the brand. So like, sometimes you want to be this, but you're not perceived as this. So I like that definition because, you know, it kind of encapsulates, you know, all the, the fragility, you know, like, of a brand. You know, with performance marketing, you can measure everything, you know, it's it's very simple. You know, with the brand, it's a little more, you know, I would say blurry, and I think that definition is pretty good for that. They also talk about people, you know, people being a brand. And, you know, I was looking the other day at like, the top Instagram, you know, people in terms of followers. And the first brand as we know them, you know, like a brand who sells things is actually Nike, and it's only in the 16th position, you know. So like, it also tells us like how much, you know, like the brand, as we've known them, you know, for a long time, you know, are changing. You know, and, and actually in the top 15 you know, there's a lot of people do not even like athlete, artists, politician or anything like this. They are people just famous for being famous. And I'm not going to name names now. But like, you probably know, you know, who I am talking about. But, you know, we social animals, you know, like we relate to people, and I think what's happening with social media and Instagram, for instance, is, is very much that. You know, like, we want to relate to people more than brands. And I think that's a good you know, that's a good example that, that we have, right there. You know, companies used to tap into celebrities, you know, to promote their products. Now, what's interesting is celebrities, they create their own brand, and they start their own, you know, the, their own product lines, you know. I'm thinking about Cristiano Ronaldo, you know, he's the number one on Instagram. And now he does fragrance, he does, you know, eyewear, and so on, and so forth. So, you know, that's, you know, that's very, very interesting. But if we go back to the companies, everything is a brand, you know, in, in your business. The product itself, the employees, you know, your office, the wait time, you know, when you call, you know, customer service. You know, all those intangible things, you know, like, are very, you know, are very important, you know, in building your business and your brand. I like an analogy, you know, to, to the brand is, you know, marketing is asking somebody on a date. Okay? So you kind of have your sign, you know, you, you talk and you do all the good things, you know, the pick up lines, if you will. But the brand is the reason why that person will say yes. So maybe that helps you kind of understand a little more like, you know, the difference. Jeff Bezos also said, you know, your brand is what people say about you and your business when you're not in the room. So that's the I think this encapsulate very much, you know, what a, what a brand is.Steffen: Now, what is the science behind a brand?Jean-Michel: So that's, you know, that's what I really like about, you know, my job is to really trying to understand the behavior and the psychology, you know, behind, you know, the decision. You know, the decision making process when we want to buy things. And as a matter of fact, you know, decisions are not really rational, you know, like, not as rational as we think. You know, emotions actually greatly influence and in many cases, you know, they, you know, they are like the key factor, you know, in the, in the decision. You know, people have done a lot of research, it's pretty well documented around, you know, like MRI and functional MRI. So, they put you in the MRI machine, you know, like they, they measure the blood flow, you know, in your brain and they start showing you things and that's how they realize that like, emotions are much more important in the decision process than, you know, rationality. You know, like so rational is more like, hey, what are the brand, the product attributes, the features, the facts, price, and so on and so forth. And the example here is, you probably remember the last time you bought something you didn't really need, but that you really wanted. And I don't know if you like work and if you have tools and everything, like maybe you bought like a massive you know, tool kit that you didn't really need because you already have one. But you still bought it. And then you probably also remember like doing that act of purchase that like do I want this. And then you started to find some excuses to why you need it. Oh yeah you know but this one gets a little old and maybe you know like maybe I don't have this one in the toolkit. So that goes back to my point of like the emotion curated you know the the purchase and then the rationalization came later with all the good excuses you know, to you know, to buy to buy it or not. So there's actually a few important concepts that I wanted to talk about you know, today on a on that specific point. There's like social social identity that's very much in the middle of this and I think it's very important to understand as a marketer, you know, that like there's these things that are going on right now and so we have an image of ourselves you know, it's kind of a sense of we are. In psychology it's called like the self concept okay? So it's like how we perceive ourselves you know, amongst you know, other people. So, the first step you know, in this is to categorize. Okay, so to make things simple, because things are a little complicated. We categorize you know, people. So like, oh, this is the origin, this is your religion, this is your gender, you are a baseball fan and you like the giants, you know, and so on and so forth. So, we think of ourselves as member of some groups, but not necessarily of yours. Okay, so like let's think let's think about something you go to the bar and like you sit down and you talk to the person right next to you and the person says, you know, I'm from this town and the person is from the same town. All of a sudden you know, like you're part of the same group. You probably gonna buy a drink to this person. If that person was from like a totally different town you know, you wouldn't even continue the conversation. So that's the categorization effect. Then there's the identification. So now you identify to a group and now you understand that in order to be recognized you know in this group you know, there's appropriate you know, things and behaviors that you you want to do. Let's say I go to the gym. If I go to the gym, I'm gonna buy Gatorade and it's not only because Gatorade as electrolytes and and good flavor. Subconsciously I also want to show people at the gym that like I'm all about, you know fitness and I'm fitness conscious. So I'm going to buy Gatorade and not Budweiser. Try to bring a bit visor at the gym next time you go and see how people react. If they want to talk to you or or if they want to kind of push you away. But what's interesting here is that the same person in the same day can now go to a barbecue and now buy you know Budweiser instead of buying Gatorade because now you want to show to your to your people at the barbecue that hey you like a good time you'd like to have a drink. So you can really identify to a lot of different groups and they can be different different decisions you know in the in the same day. The last point that's important here is you know there's the concept of comparison. So like we tend to compare ourselves you know with other groups. I think there's a very good example here in terms of branding is you probably remember the I'm a Mac I'm a PC commercials from from Apple. It was like a while back now but that was at a time where Apple understood that they really needed to like to have like look we're different. We're the cool guys. PCs are not the cool guys. Apple doesn't need this anymore. Apple is just like beyond that point. People know that you know you better if you have a Mac than if you have a PC. But that's again like the comparison can reinforce you know the difference and make you feel even more you know part of like the specific group that you you belong to.Steffen: Interesting. Jean-Michel, why are some brands perceived stronger than others?Jean-Michel: So you know like again we go back to this point like we want to belong to you know, to a group. So you know, you need to follow the code you know if you want to be part of a group as I just mentioned. So you have to follow the crowd to some extent. It's kind of like the herd behavior. So you know, that's kind of the key the key aspect. So for instance we moved to a new place you know, last year you know, the lease of the car ended we just got a new car it's a Volvo XC 60. We've never had a Volvo before. And you know, like talking about the herd behavior you know, guess what my neighbors drive? They drive a Volvo and also I was thinking about this the other day I'm like it's very much like keeping up with the Joneses here. But like this is I'm not saying that there's a direct relationship to this but like this this is happening. The same way we talking about you know, the herd of people following the crowd. Today 72% of millennials you know live paycheck to paycheck. 45% of them you know, have an iPhone. And an iPhone is not a cheap you know, device. So like, how can you not afford you know, $1,000 phone but still, you know, make the sacrifice you know, to get it? You know, it's there's there's a reason there. And that's the reason of like, belonging. You know, being part of the being part of the group. So it's a, you know, it starts early, you know, like, being the cool kid in school. That's, that's the same idea. The idea of, of belonging. It's interesting actually, you know, Airbnb a few years back, their, their tagline was like belong anywhere. It was actually a pretty smart tagline because like, he worked for both the renters and the owners. Because if you are a renter, you're like, oh, I'm going to feel, you know, that I'm part of this group, this community, if I go to Barcelona, I'm going to be Catalan, you know. This and that. And then beyond on the other side, the people who own or like, you know, share their, their apartment or their house, then it's like, oh, if I want people to belong, I really need to do like, more than more than what I would do even for my friends, you know, So I have to, like, roll the red carpet, you know, maybe prepare, like a little snack when they arrive. Have some good wine, you know, like local wine. So that's the idea. You know, like, you know, belonging, you know, that's like, super, super important. Steffen: So it's basically at the end of the day, it's how others, whether those are companies, people, perceive you. Whether that's negative or positive, and what that means to them, at the end of the day.Jean-Michel: Yeah, that's, you know, that's pretty much that's pretty much that, you know, like any don't, it's also like, your self esteem, like, do you want, you know, we say, sometimes, like, you want to dress for the job that you want, rather than the job that you have. So if you want to become like, you know, the CEO of a company, you probably don't want to wear shorts, you know, every day at the office. It's probably less less the case now, especially in our startup world. But you know, back in the days, it was more like, okay, just like, just start putting yourself in this role. Otherwise, you know, like, people won't necessarily think that you're part of this group, and therefore, you won't have the credibility, and you may just not get the job because of that.Steffen: Yeah. Now that we talked about, you know, why a strong brand is important, what is the brand and all of that? Jean-Michel, how do you start building a brand, whether that's for company or, you know, for yourself?Jean-Michel: Yeah, so, you know, it's very much a process, you know, you don't, you don't just start a brand, you know, like this, you know, it's, it's like, it's important to follow the process. And because brand is much more than a cool logo, as we, as we mentioned earlier, so take times, it takes investment, but it also takes like buy in. I've never seen, like, a marketing manager, you know, build the brand without having the support of the C suite, you know, like the CEO, the CFO, and sometimes even, like, you know, the, you know, the board, the board members. Because building a brand can also be a little more expensive, you know, what, you know, when, you know, when you start. To me, it really starts with, like, you know, discovering the purpose behind your brand. The one thing that's tricky these days is, you know, there's a lot of VC money out there, and it's very easy to raise money for, you know, for whatever you want to do. The challenge with that is like, as an investor, if you don't invest, you don't have a job. So they end up investing in the same kind of products or services. So the competition increases. And now you end up in a position where you're like, okay, you know, is everything a commodity here, because like, all the salaries are the same, all the companies are trying to tell you that they're different, but they're very much, you know, the same. So it's tricky, because if you just like a transactional, a transactional business with no differentiator, then you're a commodity. And if you're a commodity, guess what? People that choose the cheapest option. And if you choose the cheapest option, that means you have no loyalty, you know, like you don't care about, you know, the brand. And that's something we see more and more because of that, because now there's a lot of businesses in the same, you know, in the same line of business. Think about a gas station, like, you know, they don't really do advertising, you know, it's a distribution game in this industry. Like, tell me the last time you took a 10 mile detour, you know, to get like, a specific brand for gas, you know, that that doesn't, you know, that doesn't happen. So, it's really going back to, to, you know, the discovery of this is, what problem are we solving? Why do we exist, you know, what, what should people care? An example is, you know, like, do we think we need another shoe maker, you know, in this in this world? You know, I don't think so. But like, if you take the example, the example of Toms, you know, like, Blake Mycoskie started that in 2006 and you know, like he visited Argentina and is like oh, he saw the impact of a pair of shoes could have you know, in you know, in the child's life. For him that really connected in is like, I need to do something about this. And the way he did it is like look, I'm going to build a brand, but like every time you know, somebody buys a pair of shoes, you know, I'm gonna offer a pair of shoes. That was kind of like in his mind, and he built actually a pretty successful business, you know, doing this. But that was his purpose. He didn't start thinking, how am I going to become a billionaire? It started with like, a clear problem, you know, in a market that was already like pretty crowded. I'm not saying that a shoe is not a commodity, but the same thing we talked about Nike earlier, you know, like these, you know, these companies, they build the, the brand more than just like, a way, you know, to walk from A to B without scratching the soul of your foot. So that's where it starts, you know, it's okay, what's my real reason to live to be here as a business. And then once you understand that, you have your mission, you have your values, then you can start thinking about your brand strategy. So, you know, like, you look at, you know, your environment, you know, your competitors, you start thinking about your target audience, building your personas, because maybe like, you're gonna have to work on a smaller niche market. But some niche markets are actually so big, that it's very valuable, you know, to, to be in a niche market. And then you work on your brand voice, you know, your message and your story. And so that's kind of the second step, you know, of, you know, building the brand, the brand strategy. Then after that, you can work on your brand identity. So only now you can think about your logo, your color, you know, your patterns, you know, like your website, and you know, content and messaging, and so on, and so forth. And once you have that, then you can push that message, you know, to the right people at the right place at the right time on the right platform. So that's going to be your social media marketing, email marketing, paid advertising, and so on, and so forth. So that sounds like easy, but like, most of the time, as you mentioned earlier, you know, a lot of people start with, you know, the brand marketing, you know, which is okay, let's do paid social, let's do, you know, paid paid search. But when you don't know, like, everything that I talked about earlier, you know, so like the discovery of brand strategy, that every time you do an ad, you kind of need to reinvent the wheel. It's like, okay, what should we say this time? Who should we have on the ad? It's actually very draining for a team to always have to reinvent the wheel, you know, when you when you do a campaign. And as a matter of fact, it's not very productive because you don't know who you're talking to, you don't know what to say to them. So if you think that just starting with like the low hanging fruit, and the paid marketing and the performance marketing, like already here, you know, this is challenged. Because like, the older work that you didn't do, you know, at the top of, you know, that funnel is, is not helping you getting, you know, good conversion rates, and good click through rate, and so on and so forth. So, that's an important aspect really do the homework to, you know, to start from the discovery phase.Steffen: Yeah. So that kind of leads me to the question, you know, what does brand marketing do from your perspective that performance marketing doesn't?Jean-Michel: So you know, performance marketing, as mentioned, is sometimes tends to be very transactional. So you do paid search, like you don't have like, this is not like, you know, you don't have the real estate, you know, like a blog post when you do paid search. So it's very much like keyword specific. So it's hard to kind of like, share with people who you are, you know, and why you are and, and so on and so forth. So, performance marketing obviously is kind of like the bottom of the funnel of like, look, now people convert, you know, you look at your person or you know, you know, your, your consumer journey, you know, it starts with like an awareness play, then the second one is a consideration play. And the third one is like a conversion play. So, I see paid, you know, performance marketing very much like the last step. Like when you have people ready to go, and they're going to click and they're going to go to your site and make a transaction. So you have to work a lot on the other side of things like the, you know, the awareness piece, you know, is is also pretty key. So, you know, for me, that's what that's what brand marketing you can do. It's really like building the story having the narrative and explaining the why. Performance marketing is more like the what, you know, like what do you have for sale, you know, how much it is and so on and so forth. So building the brand is really understanding the why and going back again, to the emotion element that we talked about that really help with decision making. So again, you can grow you know, with your, your performance marketing, but to me, you can only grow so much. You will need like brand, you know, to really take it to the to the next level. You know, like building community. There's a reason why everybody wants to build a community. They don't necessarily understand why, you know, like, everybody wants a community, but like, this is what we're talking about, you know, it's belonging, you know, to, you know, to something and some brands obviously, Nike is a good example. You know, they're very good at building this connection between, you know, the athletes and the people like me, you know, not necessarily professional athletes, but we feel like inspired you know by what they've seen.Steffen: Yeah I think it's important to to really consider brand marketing just because you need to introduce your service your company to your target audience and most likely there will be other companies that go after the same people or companies and you need to be able to differentiate yourself. You need to be able to to indicate or to to communicate why they should you know, consider you as a solution and not the competitor at the end of the day. And as they make their journey down the funnel you will have as a company several opportunities to influence how they see you at the end of the day. Until you go to the bottom and then you know when when you're able to activate them, that's when performance marketing takes over.Jean-Michel: That's right, and you know, like I'm looking I'm thinking about I was in the grocery delivery business you know prior to Outdoorsy and you know the way I thought about it I'm like look, people only eat three three times a day. Sometimes not even. Let's think about two or three times a day. Having another player you know in that industry is not going to make people eat four times a day. Everybody's eating you know the the competitors lunch you know to some extent. So again if you don't have you know specific differentiator and sometimes it can be price. I'm not saying that price isn't is not a good one. But again, nobody wants to build a business on prices because they're very hard you know to build. It's much easier to build the business on other other features. But that's that's the thing you know, like more competition doesn't mean more consumption. Food grocery delivery and food delivery is very much a good example of that.Steffen: Yeah, and I think you know, if you build your your business on price it's kind of the race to the bottom starts at that point because there will always be someone that is cheaper than you and if you want to continue to kind of attract people for your price, you will just have to follow suit and have to pass that company. So that's never never good.Jean-Michel: And there's many different ways. There's two ways for companies who fight for price. I mean look Walmart fantastic business. Very big you know used to be the biggest business in the US. Amazon to some extent is also working on price. But so it's either you're massive or you or you die pretty quickly. So it's one or the other. There's nothing kind of like in between you know, with you know, if price is your, price is your business.Steffen: Now one important question that always comes up when I talk about brand or when when when I talk to clients about brand marketing is, well how do we measure brand?How do we measure the success of our investment in brand advertising? What are your thoughts? How do you do that?Jean-Michel: You know, so like I manage a team you know, that's a performance team and a brand team you know, at Outdoorsy and I don't necessarily want to differentiate you know, if you do performance or if you don't do performance. I tell them all the time oh, we're getting you know, 20,000 more followers on you know, on Instagram, that doesn't pay the bills, okay? So it's always trying to push the envelope you know, with everybody to understand okay, how we can reconnect, you know, what you do in your channel to a bottom line, you know, sales or whatnot. So, culturally, I think it's very important, you know, to not differentiate your business where you're like, oh, yeah, the performance people, they have their budget and we know the CAC and we know the LTV and we know the LTV to CAC. And there's a brand team who's kind of like we're spending money because we need a Facebook page or we need we need this or we need that. The way I think about is like look everything is is is can be measured one way or another. There's ways that are better than others but like that doesn't mean that we should just look at like the new followers that we have on our social platform. That's an example. So you know, if you start building your brand there's a lot of things you can you can measure. You can measure your brand awareness. You can measure you know your brand loyalty, your brand perception, you know, your reputation. I think all these things actually pretty important because if I go back to my point from earlier, like and even the definition we talked about, which is like you know, how you intend you know, to be perceived by the by the users. So these are the things you need to measure you know, to some extent. What we do, what we do a lot is you know, tracking you know, you can track your brand awareness. So, you know, before you season, during your season so you kind of understand when you have a campaign, how it helps you kind of increase your brand awareness. But eventually after the campaign how it will go back to a level that you would hope is higher than before you know, the season. But when you measure this you can also measure like hey, am I friendly brand? Am I repeatable? Am I gonna, you know, be supportive if anything happens, and you can measure that against other of your competitors. So all of a sudden, you can create a map that tells you look, we think we are this, but actually, this competitor is winning on that, you know, dimension. So like understanding that also helps you think about how we should change the way we talk to our users, or what we tell them. And so that's, that's kind of like a high level example. But like, measuring brand will become very important if you want to go spend more money. And if you need to go talk to your CFO, you're not going to go to your CFO and say, hey, I need 3 million without building like a little bit of a case. So, you know, there's, there's a lot of ways, like, for instance, we're doing TV right now. And, you know, back in the day TV was kind of complicated. You were like okay, we can do linear TV, and we can look at like our traffic, and if there's an increase in direct traffic, in SEO traffic and brand term, you know, keywords on paid search. Then we'll attribute that, you know, in the window, that the commercial aired. So you know, that was a good way. And that's what I was doing, I remember, like 15 years ago. Now, you can also use, you know, OTT, and you can use programmatic TV, you know, where there's going to be a click, or there's going to be an ID and you can, like, you know, take that into your database and understand the value, you know, of what's happening here. For out of home radio, you can also ask, you know, people how they heard about you. I did that, you know, we did that a lot at getaround and there's there was actually a good fidelity between the time we start the campaign, and, you know, like the lift, you know, that we see, you know, from that question that we ask when when people sign up. So, is it perfect? I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's the beginning of an answer, you know, and again, when you go to your CFO, and you say, look, this is what I see, when we spend, you know, we increase the traffic, and, you know, this is eventually the tag that we see, and you can talk about blended CAC, eventually. And then it's, it's the question of, like, how much do we want to grow? You know, do we want to do we want to be a business where we want to show good unit economics. In that case, you know, like, those channels are probably going to be a little challenging. Or are we trying to gain market share? Are we trying to be the first one to reach a certain amount of market share? In this case, you know, that, you know, you need to be a little more aggressive, you know, with, you know, with your marketing. But again, spending, marketing brand marketing dollars, without having a good structure of your brand. And having done all the homework that we talked about earlier, you know, can be, can be a waste. You know, you want to make sure that like, the juice of the span that you're going to, you can have in, you know, TV, you know, radio out of home, or anything else, you know, is really career and you know, with the brand and what you want to build. And that's why I'm saying I would never recommend people to start with a brand campaign, you know, with mass media, you know, outlets before you can start selling to some users. And you can start understanding about your users a little more, so you can adapt your message, adapt your, your personas. And then once you feel pretty good about it, now you can just be like, okay, now I know where I can find these people and amplify, you know, the brand campaign, you know, to a bigger audience. And then now you can, you can go for it. And again, try to really understand the impact that has. And it depends from one industry to another. So I don't necessarily want to talk for you know, for everybody, but that's key, you know, like, there's no silver bullet, but don't give up. Just keep on trying to measure that.Steffen: Yeah. Jean Michel unfortunately, we've come to the end of today's podcast episode. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on brand advertising. If people want to find out more about you and your company, how can you get in touch?Jean-Michel: I mean if you want to check out Outdoorsy, you know just go to the website, you can rent an RV and just go have fun for the weekend. If you want to contact me personally, I can be found on LinkedIn. So Jean Michel Boujon is my is my name just search and you know, connect. And I'd be happy to answer maybe more specific questions around, you know, measurement if that's what matters to you.Steffen: Perfect. Well, thanks everyone for listening. If you liked the Performance Delivered podcast, please subscribe to us and leave us a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast application. If you want to find out more about Symphonic Digital, you can visit us at Symphonicdigital.com or follow us on Twitter at Symphonic HQ. Thanks again and see you next time.Voiceover: Performance Delivered is sponsored by Symphonic Digital. Discover audience focused and data driven digital marketing solutions for small and medium businesses at symphonicdigital.com
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