On this week’s episode of Performance Delivered, our special guest is Hugh Kelly, Vice President of Marketing for Volta Networks. Hugh brings over 25 years of experience in software, networking and related technology businesses, from start-ups to publicly traded companies, to Volta Networks today.Hugh says, “I think it's really important that companies understand that it's not the amount that you create, it's the quality, if you end up creating low quality content, people will will not stay on your site, they're not going to go further into your site and choose to consume more content, or to find out more about your company. So it’s better to have fewer pieces but of higher quality than more pieces of lower quality.”We chat about customizing and personalizing marketing solutions, as well as:
- Marketing Automation Platforms
- Qualifying Leads
- Providing Useful Information to your Target Audience
- Intent Data
- And more
Listen now...
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Steffen Horst: Welcome to the Performance Delivered insider secrets for digital marketing success podcast, where we talk with marketing and agency executives and learn how they build successful businesses and their personal brand. I'm your host, Steffen Horst. Today, we're going to talk about how to establish your startup against entrenched competitors. Here to speak with me about the topic is Hugh Kelly. He was the VP marketing at Volta Networks, a company that sells networking software to large service providers and mobile operators. Hugh has more than 25 years of experience in software networking and related technology businesses, ranging from startups to publicly traded companies. Hugh, welcome to Performance Delivered.Hugh Kelly: Thank you, Steffen, I'm delighted to be with you.Steffen: Before we before we start talking about today's topic. I'd love to find out more about you. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? How did you get started in marketing?Hugh: Yeah, well, I, when I graduated from college, I wound up in a sales role. And I found that I love talking to customers, but really was not particularly good at sales. And after grad school, I had an opportunity to join a high tech company, my first real marketing job, where I had the benefit of doing a lot of technical support work from a marketing standpoint, for our customers. So I had that benefit of talking, spending a lot of time talking and listening to customers, and just gradually learned more and more about technology, and ultimately just kept growing in the role. It turned out to be perfect for me, I've always joked with my sales teams that I love talking to customers, but I don't ever want to have to do their jobs. And what I've found over the years is that marketing has become so much more technical metric driven, really innovated in the last 10 years or so. And all those changes, I think are just invigorating. And being in the technology space, we tend to be early adopters of those sorts of things. And I think that's even clear. Now we're seeing lots of online activities, lots of webinars. And we've adjusted very quickly, no more trade shows lots of webinars.Steffen: That's actually a question I have for you. It's, um, you know, 25 years experience, you started your career off when online wasn't really a thing, right? It was in the very early stages, although shortly after, you know, there was the big boom in a big burst. But how have you dealt over the years with the fact that, you know, this, the marketing landscape has changed? You know, there were new solutions that popped up new ways to engage with your customers successfully, how have you approached adopting to those new solutions and making sure that you personally are on top of, you know, what might be relevant for for the area you are responsible for, but also helping the company that you work for? adopt those new opportunities, new solutions?Hugh: Yeah, that's a great point, because it really is two dimensions to this, right. There's what we use internally, the whole evolution of marketing automation. I remember, you know, basically having a marketing automation automation solution, which was a staff of three people who just hounded salespeople for status and kept spreadsheets up to date. And so now, being able to do that with a marketing automation platform, is just, you know, it's really night and day in terms of how quickly you can get information, how everything is metered and measured. I've always been a big believer, you're kind of in, in the philosophy of, it's not a goal, if you don't write it down, you really have to articulate those things and say them out loud, here's how many leads I'm going to generate, here's what I want my cost per lead to be. And always be looking for ways to improve those metrics. You can always fine tune.And the other side of this has been our go to market. I mean, you've brought up some of those days where I'm I, I don't. I haven't had to worry about going and doing a press run check on a big printed document in years. And we can turn around things so much more quickly, rich content has really exploded. And it makes it so much easier now to track sources and for attribution. You know, I'm not at the point where I can monitor what domains my website visitors are coming from. And for someone who sells to large service providers, which typically do have top level domains. I may not know who it is, but I know what customer they're coming from. And that makes a huge difference. I can start to gain some intelligence from that. So it's been a real change. It's been gradual, but I think I've been fortunate to be on the technology side. This market has always embraced utilization of technology . We do practice what we preach.Steffen: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned technology a few times just a second ago. What software solution? Are you currently using to, to make things more seamless to kind of take away this manual labor that you talked about? In the beginning of your answer? You know, that you had three people that were using spreadsheets and and kind of, you know, going back to the sales page, what about this lead? What about this lead? What, what systems? Do you think, you know, are required, at least on a base level to get started? And then once you go from there moving forward, what other systems should companies consider?Hugh: Right? So I'm a big believer in buying into marketing automation relatively early to both as a startup we've been around since 2016. When I joined, we had about 20 employees, I was the first real marketing employee the company had. And one of the things we did, we've had marketing automation in place for a full two years. And the great news for a company like our size is there's platforms like marchetto and hacked on both of which I've used, as well as act on which I've used. And those actually have now become much more price competitive for small companies, right, you don't have to go by a big massive installation, particularly HubSpot and act on are both good there. Right. So you have that common repository.As a side note, as a company has a lot of operations employees in Europe and deals with European customers, we're very sensitive to privacy regulations, particularly GDPR. And so we're always talking to our suppliers who do have a data processing agreement, let's get a copy of it on file, things like that. I think marketers have to be thinking about the big picture. Because that's certainly an element of your brand. Right? If you make a deal that you're going to ask somebody for their contact information, for a gated asset, like a white paper or a video, then you want to make sure that's being properly protected, and you're not abusing that. So, my starting point is marketing automation. The other is making sure that it's well integrated with the website. And that's becoming increasingly easy to do.And certainly, you know, tracking cookies and pixels, make it feasible to do what I mentioned earlier, which is keep track of visitors to the website and kind of see who's coming back. And one of the things I wanted to talk about today was intent data. And that's actually a form of that. And so you have now all these different data sources, quite frankly, you know, the tools you get either from just Google Analytics, and some of the free Google tools in terms of optimizing your website and your searches, information. Those are really quite robust, what you get is you don't need to spend a lot of money on it. Now we're not an e-commerce company, we are selling high ticket b2b software, that's really the market that we're in. So we're willing to pay relatively large amounts on a cost per lead basis compared to a b2c market.But the whole point of that, really is that you don't need to spend a huge amount of money on the market. Next segments I'm in to have fairly sophisticated capabilities and get a really good sense of what's going on. The other side of that is with APIs application programming interfaces, you can connect almost anything together. And that's capability that has grown exponentially in the last few years. There's certainly solutions that range from the low end to the high end. But you can tie systems together. So what I gathered, a marketing automation platform can be sent automatically to the sales team in CRM, something like Salesforce. And then if they reject the lead, because it hasn't met a qualification criteria, but they can tag it with data, I can say, Oh, I know, I know the application. And once we have those features, we'll be able to go back to them in the meantime, you know what nurture stream it should go into. All that can be automated much more readily.And the same thing is true when you start looking at customer service trouble, ticketing, something like Zendesk, all of those can be tied together pretty simply through API's. So it also gives marketers the opportunity to buy the best of breed yet still work with your peers in sales and service to really have a full view of what's going on with the customer.Steffen: I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, from what I've seen here and then talking to other companies. Those are areas to just touched on where I feel a lot of startups already fail, because they don't they don't use the right tools or they spend too much money on those tools because they want to have the fancy new shiny tool that costs a lot And then they just use it to a small percentage, and some might not even use it correctly. So, having a proper system set up to automate as many tasks as possible in this, you know, marketing and sales process not only saves time, but it also provides clarity and visibility on the data data company collects. Talking about data, as it comes to success metrics, how important for you, was it when you joined to kind of figure out, you know, what is our max cost per lead? You know, what is the conversion rate between lead to SQL and SQL to SQL to opportunity to sell? And how did you approach that, if potentially, you didn't have a huge amount of data that you could basically use to base your decisions on or to base your model on?Hugh: Yeah, it's a challenge. I'm fortunate that I have sold into the service provider market, on and off in the end in the networking space. So I've got some good, you know, kind of experiential, elements that I can draw on. numbers may not be exact, but we looked at it and say, yeah, you know, for certain webinars, we can be in the $50 per lead cost per lead range. Whereas some of the content syndication, we want to be obviously much lower than that some of the high end conferences will be willing to spend a lot more to get facetime with customers. So it's always going to be a blend. And working with an experienced VP of sales, as we have in volta made it easy for us to sit down together and model out both our interaction and the larger customer engagement, you know, from the point where the customer is researching solutions, all the way through to the point where we capture the contact information.And then we put it through a qualification process. And I hand it off to sales. And then there's a whole process where they go through. And we've added a lot of qualification steps, because as a start up, opportunity cost is pretty significant, right, we do a field trial with a large service provider, that means we're not doing one with another one. So we have to be sure that those are well qualified, that we have a great product fit for what the customer needs. And it doesn't do us any good to queue up to treat it as a numbers game. Man, we want to make sure we're not going to waste a customer's time. And we want to make sure that we're all because we're doing things a little bit differently than other vendors.We also take our role as thought leaders pretty seriously when we work with third parties, like omdia, and gsna, on webinars and content syndication. And when we write a white paper, we deliver a webinar on a given technical topic, even if I'm the one delivering it, we make sure it's high value technical content, and not a sales pitch. That helps us with the analysts who are typically the keynote speakers on those, and I think our customers appreciate that. But it also puts us in the position of right, these are people that we can listen to. So if I like the webinar, I'm gonna come back and download the white paper. And when we start to see those behaviors, that's where we start to get the payoff. And that's when we start to qualify the lead.Steffen: Yeah, yeah. It's basically taking the selling out of the selling at the end of the day, right, just providing information that is useful for your target audience. And once they get familiar with the content with you, as a company and into the level of knowledge and experience. Yeah, I mean, it's so much easier for them to say, you know, what I want to. I want to talk to these guys from both networks, they seem to know their stuff. And it will happen even without having to push things on them and having this big sales line in your content or in your webinar.Hugh: Right, exactly it. I think, you know, there's the kind of the mantra today is just, you don't sell to customers they buy from you. And I look at myself, maybe I'm just a focus group of one. That's always dangerous. But when we bought the marketing automation platform, I looked at how I was treating a cinco. Alright, I'm going to start looking at some of the analysts recommendations around the marketing automation platforms, reading some of the online reviews. Now I'm going to start narrowing it down to who are the vendors, I really want to talk to employees having used some of these systems and talk to people who use them. I needed to get very specific data and that gave me a picture of what I wanted to buy. I already had a pretty strong list of requirements and acknowledgement of their pricing because most of them have at the time it's become a little more opaque their pricing models.So once I eliminated a few vendors who said yeah, those are quite the right platforms. I don't think I can afford marchetto but I can look at HubSpot. I can look at the act on I should look at par dot and when so I By the time I started to engage salespeople, I had already narrowed it down. So all of those vendors, you know, they had to provide the information to me digitally. And my biggest interest was, you know, do you do what I think I need done? And then so that made the sales interaction much more productive, because I was drilling into them and saying, alright, you do IP address tracking, here's how, how does the cookie work? If the customer moves there, goes from their office to their home office, and now they're coming from a different domain? And how do you manage that in the database and things like that? I think sometimes those vendors are a little surprised when they get that depth question. But the details do matter.When I look at that, as it is, I went through this process, most of my qualification was done before I ever talked to one of the vendors. And I use the I started to utilize the phrase, when I was talking to some lay intent vendors of binge researching, right, I went for months with never looking at anything, if something came across, you know, an email from Forrester gardener with the the Magic Quadrant or whatever, in an interesting space, I would look at it. But then once I realized that I was going to be buying this, I kind of went into buyer mode. And I think that happens with customers. And we see that with the large service riders, even the smallest servers, I might, you know, a small service writer might have a few hundred million dollars of revenue, that's not a small company, they will have a buying team, right? If it's there's going to be the architect, architecture people, the operations people, the security people, all of those have a role in this.And so you start to say, right, it's a team. That's why I care much more about the account than I do about the individual, I care about the individuals, but it's, I need to sell to the IT team selling into that team. So it really becomes account based marketing. And you can see the same thing. If all of a sudden, four people from the same customer hit my website, within a 10 day window, I can monitor and track that something is going on, or the same person comes back multiple times. And then finally goes through a piece of gated content. And now I've captured their contact information. And I can go back and look at all of that. I can say those become triggers for the qualification process. And that makes it easier on sales because I'm not handing them something where someone has just downloaded a hypothesis.This particular person has been on our website three times in the last three weeks, they've looked at this, this and this. And then they finally gave us their contact information when they downloaded this. And oh, by the way, they said in a webinar six months ago. And so now the sales team knows what that interaction has been. It gives them some ideas about what the application is. And so when they're when they engage the customer. It's not blind, it's not a cold call, they're following up. And the customer has already given signals that are in the market.Steffen: Yeah, those are really good points. Let's move on to another topic. And so obviously, Volta Networks is a startup in a networking space, as we talked about earlier, um, when you join, how did you approach identifying your target market and your customers?Hugh: Yeah, that's a great point. Because in the networking space, if there's a very strong split between the enterprise and the service provider, service providers, their networks are just so much larger, some of their technical requirements are different. Their operations are generally set up briefly. But fundamentally, they're not using it as a cop in a cost center fashion, right? If I buy a router from Cisco as an enterprise, I'm using that to connect my internal network to external resources, the internet, SaaS applications and cloud applications, maybe my trading partners, but when a service provider buys, they're building their business on this network. They're selling VPN services to an enterprise, they're selling mobile services to consumers.And so their whole approach to things are very different. We had already made a decision that we were going to focus more on service providers, because we saw that that's where it would be actually the easiest to be able to engage the customer. Right? There's a lot of enterprises, relatively few service providers and a few thousand globally that are significant. So it's a little bit more of elephant hunting. There's not a lot of elephants, but they're not hard to find either. And all of us in the team had experience in selling to service providers. And so it was a natural fit. And we were very fortunate as the market evolved in our favor, right. The things I mentioned earlier, some of the technology changes where we could say, we can take software that used to run on a big expensive router, and now run it in the cloud at a fraction of the price.We don't have to, the customer doesn't have to buy expensive proprietary hardware, they can buy these low cost boxes built on commercial silicon, which costs a fraction of what the proprietary hardware does. And the customers like this, because now they can pick and choose between hardware and software, they have a little more buyer power in that scenario. But it also makes it easier for them to innovate. And that's one of the things that they really liked. So we were fortunate at some technology, things came together to make it feasible to deliver a very compelling value proposition. I had a customer with one of the very large service providers in the US tell me that when they look to make a change, they're looking for an order of magnitude change in either price or performance.And if you can't deliver that, the cost of change becomes a little bit too much for them, they say, we're not going to get all of the savings that you promised us. Or maybe we can't get every bit of performance economics. If it's theoretically possible to get an order of magnitude, after the cost of implementation is over, if I can still get a 50% improvement, I actually think that's pretty good. And so we had a you know, having relationships with the customers always make it easier to know, here's how you've got to go to market with those things. The other thing we're fortunate with is that the market started to evolve with the advent of 5g in the wireless space. And one of the things that sets 5g apart is well it can be used more or less like 4g, the big cell towers, we all know that those are sometimes disguised as trees, that usually the big towers that are a couple of miles apart. In 5g, you can get much higher speeds, but it has to be a shorter distance to get those speeds.And so you're going to start to see small cell towers that are going to be bolted onto light poles in urban cores that deliver extremely high bandwidth. Right, we're talking multi gigabit today, you're probably getting, you know, 2030 megabits per second, on your own connections. And that works great for most of the things that people are doing with their cell phones, you're thinking about 5g is also going to enable a lot of enterprise applications, right, they can start selling new services to businesses. So we were fortunate that we now had this technology that delivered an order of magnitude improvement in price, coupled with the point where the customer needed to start adding so many more connections that they needed a lot more routers, but they needed them to be very small and very cost effective. Right? It's a little bit like computers, right? You know, decades ago, you had the mainframes and over time, as computers got smaller and less expensive.People found a way to keep buying more and more powerful processing to the point now where obviously, we're buying tremendous amounts of practically just live on your cell phone, right, you make you make the same kind of thing, less expensive, people can use it more broadly. And that's what's happening here. So we were fortunate that our value proposition and the, and the changes in the marketplace to the needs of the customer had aligned very, very well. Sometimes, you know, you'd rather be lucky than good as the saying goes, but you know, but luck is also you know, good preparation, understanding your customer, and being able to deliver that compelling value proposition when you see the opportunity. And for us, it was also interesting because this is a Greenfield, right? We're not asking them to take out Cisco or Juniper, we're saying, don't they don't really have a product that does exactly what you want to connect all these new cell towers? We do. And here's what we do.Steffen: Okay, now, you compete against really entrenched large companies, the likes of Cisco and Juniper. Obviously, I'm happy. How did the vaulter as a startup, or how do you guys compete against them? And these guys are established? Obviously, they have based off of clients, their names, unknown people, you know, know what they deliver the services to products? How do you compete against them?Hugh: How did you write it? Yeah. So I think the most important thing is to have strong differentiation. There. So our, I've had this discussion with almost every CEO I've ever worked for, when I said once we hit on are the right set of, of high level external messages, we are going to maintain a high degree of message discipline, because about the time your customers start it started to sink into them what you do, you're going to be sick and tired of it, you're going to be tempted to move on. So we're not going to do that, that we're going to say here's our value proposition. We're one 10th of the price of these legacy systems. Because we run in the cloud We can now deliver you virtualization, which lowers cost, improves service agility, I meet all these technical things, but we're the only ones who can do that, because we run in the cloud. And oh, by the way, we support all the relevant standards for automation. And that's it, you know, we, you can't really tell a customer too much more than that.And as long as they know that we are the guys that run the routing control plane in the cloud. I've done my job, because now we start to trigger interest, because that's different. And, you know, again, I mentioned Greenfield, as it was very fortunate for us, we had tried going in and saying, why don't you instead of upgrading those big Juniper, Cisco routers, replace them with these bite box switches is what they're called with commercial asix. And that was okay. But it was tough, because you're basically asking somebody to change out something they already have in place. And so you have to find opportunities with the customers to use their capacity, or they're getting so old, they have to be replaced. So you're, you're really only you're limited by the replacement cycle.Whereas with this kind of Greenfield build out, and where a lot of the carrier's capital investment is going right now. It's all new. And they feel like they have to do this. And they're thinking about what they want. And they're telling us what they want. One of the great things is we're seeing customers acting like early adopters, which is to say, they're going to start courting smaller companies and give us a chance. No, we don't hit the ball out of the ballpark every time we go into the lab, and we'll get to a point where that feature really didn't work quite right. And can you fix it and bring it back to us in three months. And having early adopters who will guide you is a big, big deal. I think it comes down to if you want to use it like a crime show motif, it's most of an opportunity.Customers have an opportunity where they say I need to do this, and I have a particular need that's not being met readily. Because one of the issues that the big vendors have is there are hostages to their own business models, they have large sales forces with big quotas. And if they stopped selling hardware, and just put it on commercial off the shelf stuff that is made, you know, by companies like edgecore, in Taiwan, with much much lower gross margins, it would be very disruptive to their whole business model, they would not be able to support the organizations they have. And so being smaller and nimble, we can say, look, we're a pure software company, we don't sell any hardware, we're agnostic about it, tell us what you want, we'll qualify the platform.And our software will run on it and was designed to do that. And we don't care what cloud could be. Amazon Web Services, could be your own private cloud, we don't get we're agnostic about all of those things. And I think that helps. And it gets us a lot of attention. And I think you know, I mean, part of it is, you know, if you're going to take on big entrenched competitors, you need to have those kinds of market conditions. In order to do it successfully,Steffen: I assume you created a list of your target companies that you are going after, and you're looking for platforms that allow you to engage with them at scale. So for example, you know, an ABM system and a account based marketing system or even LinkedIn connected with that, I believe would be some great solutions to use to really engage with your target audience engage with your target audience on different levels, you know, with the champions that will internally talk about your product and say, Hey, you know what, there's this new solution I came across I love what they do, you know, we're in the process of changing things out or considering you know, how to move forward, we should definitely look at them, then they're the decision makers who have completely different interests. They are really looking at potential costs and how easy it is to implement and those kinds of things. So those systems obviously allow you to pick these people out and deliver a much more tailored message to them. Can you talk a little bit about how you use these kinds of systems, platforms to get it with your target audience?Hugh: Yeah, absolutely. So we use kind of two tools simultaneously. One is using ABM features that are built into the marketing automation platforms, right tracking by company and you're absolutely right, we have a list. What makes personalization difficult is if you look at some of the very large service providers, I mean, think of Verizon, they offer essentially cable TV services, they offer consumer broadband, they offer wireless, they offer business services. So some of my customers are very difficult to personalize even if I knew their role. Others are much easier. Oh, this is a data center operator commercial data center operator. We know what Those are so there's a little bit of a challenge there simply because of the complexity of the businesses of some of these large customers.We marry that though with intent data, because as a small company, you know, I'm very pleased with the kind of growth of web traffic we've had. It's been doubling year over year, every metric is kind of clicked up very nicely. And I wish I could claim credit because it's all brilliant marketing. But again, the market is starting to take off. Yeah, there's that traditional hockey stick, the hockey stick really hasn't kicked in yet in terms of actual customer spending. And so we partner with, you know, company tech target, which has a number of different publications. And when somebody does a search that meets our criteria, and meets our criteria from an account standpoint, we get that data. So we're starting to marry, here's behaviors on our website, here's behaviors off the website. And then we're just the third aspect of this is, we're a small company, we need some way to amplify our message. And so we partner and what we found is that webinars are a fantastic way to do that. It has turned and you know, fortunately, we were believers in that before the pandemic, and I've seen the kind of registration rates, attendance rates in the long tails for all of those go up at least 50% year over year, and the cost has not gone up. So my cost per lead for webinars has gone down dramatically.My aggregate leads have gone up. I mean, we did reasonably well. Last year, I was pretty pleased with our results. I beat my objectives in terms of top of funnel, and I said a 35% increase year over year. Year, I'm already at 174% right now, because we're in the right place at the right time. And we are very, very focused on improving and refining our message. So you're absolutely right. account based marketing tools are an important start. intent is another great thing, right? Because what does binge researching if it's not an intense signal? Yeah. And I'm a firm believer that they were your bosses, we, you know, we need to look at this new technology, somebody gets assigned to it, and they go out and they say, well, let's round up the usual suspects. And they start doing some googling. And that's one of the reasons why too, we started very early investing in rich content around critical keywords.I was talking to another marketer earlier today, saying, you know, one of our goals was to be in the top 10. For all nine of the key phrases that we care about, our average position is 2.7. We're always on the first page for any of those. And it's because we've developed a lot of content, and the content is high quality. And once you have that, then it's very easy to say, Well, what was a white paper, I can take one of those one bullet point out of a white paper and build a 500 word blog post around that. And now I've got more content, and I can cross reference those and link them internally. So all of those things start to become synergistic. But we do look for ways to amplify and, you know, there's the analysts whose firms provide the services, I would love to be able to afford their research. But we're a startup, we really can't do that. Second, we're also fortunate, there are some associations that are driven by service providers like the telecom infra project. We're members, and we've qualified as a vendor, and they do a lot of testing.And they publicize that, and they have conferences, and we're there at the conferences. So you know, the market, it's that synergy. But it's also that that becomes self reinforcing. And you're starting to see that virtuous cycle starting. Again, we can participate in that we can understand what our customers worry about. But a lot of it is saying, you know, we fact we have the right value proposition at the right time for the right customer. And we were also very, very keen on making sure that we're not trying to go after a customer who's not ready to do things the way we're talking about, right? If you're just used to buying and operating a router, also having to have cloud resources to run that may be something that they're not ready to step up to. Early Adopters are and the big companies already have those resources internally. So the whole qualification process of working with sales to make sure that we understand what we call that the pq l product qualified lead, right?We have all the features they need. They're amenable to running the software that we want, that we need to run on the cloud, we don't really have any choices there. And that we also because we've really pushed automation or you know, we've made a lot of technical contributions to the standards. committees from our technical team, including our CTO, co founder, all of those things start to come together, right. And once you find the qualified customer, and you start to understand they say, now I have a profile to work from. I know who else is an early adopter, beyond just the customer we're working with right now?Steffen: Well the one thing I wanted to pull out of what you just said, early on, in your answer is quality of content. I think it's really important that companies understand that it's it's not, it's not only the amount that you create, it's about the quality, if you end up creating content, that is, from a quality perspective low, people will, will not stay on your site, they're not going to go further into your site to to consume more content, or to find out more about your company. So sometimes, from my experience, it is better to have fewer pieces, but have higher quality than more pieces of lower quality.Hugh: Whichever you could or couldn't agree more. It's that that is so important. It's if you're going to do something, do it right. If you don't, I had a boss years ago, back when we had and this was actually a reference to printed materials. So you have to be very careful, because you don't want anything to look like a mistake. Well, the same thing is you don't do something that's a weak effort. If you're going, you know, for example, you know, because we virtualization is a key differentiator for us in the networking space, we felt very strongly that we needed to be one of the high ranking pages around what is a virtual router? Well, the simple thing was, let's build an extraordinarily high quality page, in our resources section apart from the product called what is a virtual router? And it ranks, I think, third overall, ahead of Cisco, because the quality of the content is there. Now I look at Cisco getting something like 24 million visitors a month, they're a behemoth. But if you the quality as you put it is so important, because that's what gets rewarded. And that's so that's what the customer sees when they begin that research process.Steffen: Wll Hugh, thank you so much for joining their performances by podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation today. And if people want to find out more about you and Volta Networks, how can they get in touch?Hugh: Sure. So our website is voltanet.io, you can always ping us through our website, we have the classic content Ingress startup. So if you fill out the contact form, I will get a copy of it. And, you know, I'm also happy to network with people on LinkedIn, we maintain a presence there for the company as I do as well. It's a great way to talk to folks. And yeah, that's um you know, we've made a philosophical decision that we only gate the most expensive components on our website. So a lot of the information is available just to download if anybody's really interested in some of this who wants to see examples of what we've done. Perfect.Steffen: Thanks, everyone for listening. If you liked the Performance Live podcast, please subscribe to us and leave us a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast application. If you want to find out more about Symphony Digital, you can visit us symphonicdigital.com or follow us on Twitter at Symphonic HQ. Thanks again. See you next time.
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