In my second chat with Daniel Englebretson, we’re taking a deeper dive into the world of account-based marketing—specifically how to get started with this channel, from identifying targets to what metrics to track to measure success.It’s pretty in-depth – if you want to do it right, at least. Daniel shares the step-by-step process he uses to figure out which accounts to go after and the key role the sales team plays in developing that list. Account-based marketing isn’t right for every company. But, Daniel reveals a certain type of company for which it’s the best option. Tune in to find out if your business qualifies, as well as…
- The key differences between account-based and inbound marketing
- Strategies to ensure that prospects come to you (and why they’re much more valuable)
- What you must always keep in mind when choosing your ABM targets
- How your sales team needs to be involved with your account-based marketing campaigns
- And more
Listen now...
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Steffen Horst: Welcome to the Performance Delivered insider secrets for digital marketing success Podcast, where we talk with marketing and agency executives and learn how they build successful businesses and their personal brand. I'm your host, Steffen Horst.Today, we're going to pick up where we left off last time when I spoke to Daniel Englebretson of account-based marketing. Daniel is the director of integrated marketing at Phononic. Before joining Phononic, Daniel was the director of integrated marketing at Acuity Brands, and held multiple demand generation positions. Daniel, welcome back.Daniel Englebretson: Hey, Steffen, thanks for having me back. I'm glad to be here.Steffen: During the first episode with you, we spoke about what account-based marketing is and how it has changed over a short period of time, the importance of making sure that sales teams are on board in aligned with the ABM activities as well as how to avoid being creepy when it comes to designing personalized marketing activities. Today, I want to talk about how a company would go about to get started with ABM, from identifying the targets to measuring success. However, before we talk about that, how to develop an ABM campaign, one thing we didn't talk about last time is Daniel, what is the difference between ABM so account-based marketing and inbound marketing?
Account-Based Marketing vs. Inbound Marketing: What’s The Difference?
Daniel: Sure, great question. You know, I think when you think about the activities that a marketer might be doing to generate demand for their business, there are a few different categories, you know, lead gen, demand, gen, integrated marketing, inbound marketing, all these different ways that people talk about it. And generally speaking, it's usually somewhat defined by what you're measuring, and what your business objectives are, in the process of doing that, and kind of what tactics you might be rolling into that, but inbound to me is very much more about being found organically and through other means, you know, and, I guess audience and understanding your audiences and what they're looking for, and how they talk or think about your product, and making sure that you are found where they're looking.And so in the old adage, and I'm gonna get this wrong, you know, you're seven times more likely to get the deal if they come to you than if you go to them or whatever the case is, you know, I've certainly seen that myself, you know, when the, when the contact comes to you, they've already pre-qualified you to an extent, whereas if you're going to them, and maybe not the case, so inbound, typically, and my experience is kind of more of like a foundational set of activities to help optimize your brand's presence to be found. And that usually makes sense for basically any business that's making a product or service that that's known or understood or has a defined need in the market.And it's kind of an especially interesting question for me. Because what I do today, and the company I work for today, we make things that don't exist in the world. And so no one or didn't exist this in a while before we made them. And so nobody's looking for them. And so it's an interesting problem that I have, because, you know, I come from a background with the engine doing a lot of inbound activities, where SEO is a cornerstone of what a marketer like me would be doing, and I'm still doing it, but its significance is greatly diminished, because there is no audience, predefined audience looking for what we make. And I'm not going to get into the tangent of what Phononic does, but you know, so that that actually is an interesting point as to why I even got started on an ABM in the first place.But one of, I guess, one of the things I would say about ABM before I fully get down that path, is where inbound is a set of tactics and set of activities that you might be doing to be found. Account-based marketing. maturity is a fundamental shift in how your marketing and sales teams operate, you know, in terms of how are you even planning what you're doing? And why are you doing what you're doing? And how are you measuring what you're doing? And it's, it's not so much just a set of tactics as it is a transformation of how you go about doing. So I can kind of elaborate on that a little bit. But ABM versus inbound. For me, it was really about access to the audience, and how do you... how do I get... how do I understand my audience and get access to the audience when that audience doesn't already know who I am or what I do? So ABM became about, about finding and engaging audiences that didn't necessarily know me.Steffen: So can inbound marketing fuel ABM?Daniel: Well, that's a great question. And actually, even some of the things we would see, you know, for the audience, not sure the level of familiarity, but one of the core tactics in my medium is programmatic display, targeting accounts with, with display ads that get your message right in front of where who you're trying to target. And some of the things that we hypothesize is that when we put ads out with specific terms, and like, I like one, for example, for us is "non-hermetic laser packaging," like, that's something that's new to the world that didn't exist before. And we put that term in front of our audience. And so if you were to go look at our SEO tool, what's the search volume for non-hermetic laser packaging is going to be zero when we start this out, but if we start putting ads out in mass in front of target audiences, and that's the keyword, one of the things that we hypothesize was happening was that they would see the ad not click on the ad, and then Google the keyword from the ad to go learn more about non-hermetic laser packaging outside of the context of my marketing. And so we started paying a lot of attention to even keep where the keyword was traditionally and inbound, where you're optimizing, you know, with a mix between, you know, what can you actually rank for? And where can you get volume of traffic?We actually didn't really care what the volume of traffic was around those searches, because we knew that people would be looking for them after they had seen our ads, or at least that was our hypothesis. So. So we certainly started building an inbound strategy around words that we wanted to be known for in the market, so that when the audience search for it, we'd be found, because you a big part of what we're trying to do is establish a presence and establish credibility. And in the mind of the buyer, whoever ranked first on Google, or at least ranking on the page in Google conveys some level of presence and credibility. So if we have a topic that we're trying to be known for, and when you search it you don't find us, then we diminish our credibility.So to that extent, in the context of what I'm doing, we certainly have been thinking about inbound in the context of ABM. But a firm that's not the firm I work for today can still absolutely have inbound strategies and account-based strategies working somewhat in parallel or even disparately, you know, they don't necessarily have to be in parallel, but they certainly can be. I think, pretty much any marketer will tell you that being findable on the internet is crucial. So I think, I think inbound is definitely a very relevant and very important part of what a marketer doing.Steffen: So let's, let's move over to account-based marketing. As I said, in the beginning, we really want to dive into how to get started with account-based marketing. With ABM being much more focused, how do you identify your target audience for your ABM campaign?
Identifying Your Target Audience For An ABM Campaign
Daniel: So, this kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about a fundamental shifts and how, and how you do you know, how you do your marketing, you know, in the, in the context of inbound, for example, a marketer can easily do the analysis of "what keywords do I need to rank for?" and get after that. But in the context of ABM, where you're trying to pick your accounts and account-based targeting, a marketer is not well served by picking that list in a vacuum, you really should be thinking more holistically at your company about who you're picking and why you're picking them. And sometimes you can't, sometimes the marketers got to just go do it but ideally, you're working with your sales partners, depending on what you're trying to do also, potentially, you know, the service or the customer service, or depending on what your tactics are, but you're trying to get a cross-functional look at which accounts should you be targeting.So there's kind of two ways that I've done it in one way, when I very first started with this, we have, we had a very established vertical with an established sales team, and a very well known and defined total addressable market, which at the time we thought was something like 45 accounts. So it was perfect for ABM. And we sat down with the sales leader and said, who are the most important accounts for you to penetrate this year, and the sales leader just rattle them off, basically, and we captured that. And over time we refine, then we added, etc. But it started almost entirely on that scenario with, with the sales team telling me who their accounts were. And that made sense in that vertical because the world of that vertical is very clearly defined and very known to sales, you know, and the other The alternative is, for me was, we had no established sales team at all, it was a brand new vertical and a brand new product. And we didn't even necessarily know which sub-vertical made the most sense within that our food and beverage vertical.So it was much harder to pick a list because there was no pre-existing list. And in that scenario, I guess my number one advice is to start simple, because as much as ABM is new to the marketer, in many cases, it is totally new to the sales team and more cases, and over killing the theory behind ABM, and the practice of picking accounts and ideal customer profiles and all that jazz, you know can be very overwhelming to a sales team who doesn't know anything about it.So I was very focused on simplifying the account selection process. And getting started and then growing it from there. So in that case, we took very simple demographic characteristics, which basically came down to depending on the vertical, you know, our revenue account or an employee account or a store account, or something like that, to get us started so that we could narrow down but but in both cases, it's important to be aligned with sales before you start to understand you know, who you're going to target and why you're targeting them and have everyone on the same page.Steffen: So in order to develop your target list, you just said rather start simple than kind of overcomplicating it because you need to bring your sales team on board and they probably don't understand very well, what you what you're planning to do. But what is the information that you should have at a minimum about your target, in order to later on also do personalization? And then build a target list?
Identifying Information About Your Target Audience
Daniel: That's a great question. I think in the context of this conversation, it's probably best to take it out abstract and go, just go very specific, I'll just drill straight into one vertical, which was our food and beverage vertical, and get a little bit into how, how it started and where we took it. And, you know, and that in that case, and I might have to take a step back to answer this question. But in that case, we had a new product that was new to the world that had some very strong features that we thought wind up very well with, with some pain points, but the pain points changed a bit from sub-vertical to sub-vertical. And we didn't really know which ones were going to be the most valuable. So we started. And I'm a big fan of doing this very broadly and picked nine, nine sub-verticals. And we basically picked the top hundred accounts based on some kind of firmographic volume data like, like revenue, or employees or sword count or something.And just and just turned on all nine sub-verticals at 100 accounts each and started running value prop based messaging for those sub verticals, to start listening to how accounts were engaging with the content. And so that was where we started because we just didn't know. So we needed to get basic things like what are the match rates like and how what kind of coverage can I get in the accounts and how accessible are the role types that we're after. And they really just didn't know. And so by casting a wide net like that, it Hello test phone in on which sub-verticals were even viable sub verticals, to target or, or maybe not even viable, but which ones we should focus on. So within the space of three months, we were able to cut it from nine verticals to five.And then within three months of that, we cut it three, because we had a very clear understanding of who was engaging and how well we were able to engage them. But in the process of doing that, back to being simple, because I didn't know where it was going to go when we got started. really all you have to start is the name of the account and the domain of the account. And you can start with at least for what I'm doing because you can start your targeting around the name of the account the demand account.And so and I think in this in the context of food and beverage, we did it a little bit differently in opto and healthcare because that's science. But, but literally I just googled top 100 c-stores, top 100 arenas, top 100 grocery stores and started compiling lists, because I knew that at the end of the day, that wasn't going to be my actual list. But what I wanted was something to start with start collecting analytics on how, how these verticals compared to each other in their engagement and which ones are going to be more accessible. And also to start testing value prop messaging from sub-verticals to sub-vertical, to see which ones were having, or were resonating the best. So it was very basic on what we knew about the accounts to start that because we needed to go kind of a level up from account even look at sub-verticals. And then once we got into that, we started tracking on individuals, we started tracking, you know, role types that were engaging, and the parliament so they ran that we're engaging, and spitting out the tactics by department and role type to understand a little bit better, but at the account level, the data expanded a little bit and the geographics beyond the demographics and the geographics. And some of the messaging that we started testing, especially in healthcare, I know I tried to keep trying to keep it to food and beverage, we started looking at like psychographic segmentation. So like risk or early adopter or risk aversion or early adoption or different things like that, in playing around with a messaging to the segment you know, our content and our in our messaging that way too. So it's kind of at that point, at that point of what we were doing just trying to get started, we were mostly looking for best fit that had some verticals, for an ABM targeting, I guess, to be able to kind of hone in on which which verticals we were going to be able to target.Steffen: In order to make those decisions in order to fine-tune who you're actually talking to, and who the more valuable sub verticals are, for example, data collection, organization of the data is really important.Daniel: Yeah.Steffen: Do companies need specific tools to collect data and prepared for ABM campaigns? Or can they just go with the tools that they should probably have the likes of Google Analytics, etc?
Collecting and Storing Data
Daniel: Oh, that's a great question. And one of the big, one of the big learnings that I got out of doing this, this is for me, was when I started, I had four or five data vendors that I was pulling from. And when I got done, I now have the belief that if you can get by with one data vendor, versus four or five data vendors that even if the one data vendor isn't as good as the five were, by themselves kind of coming together, the one makes it so much faster and cleaner to operate that it's saved... saved me a ton of time.And I should also say that all of this... I'm kind of just a one-man show in terms of ABM, it's just me, I have a ton of vendor partners that help me execute but it's just me. So I'm very focused on time, you know, how I'm I almost don't care at all about budget, shouldn't say that. But I care about time and what's going to get me there the fastest, because we're trying to grow the company as fast as possible, I only have so much time in my day. And so when you're sourcing data, you know, even if you're doing what I'm doing and googling top 100 or if you're buying it from listeners, which I've used, like Dun & Bradstreet or health care or zoom info, or there's a number of different or some of the niche publications where you go buy it from, it becomes really tricky to marry all that data together, if you don't have sophisticated like Master Data Management, to marry it all together, and you start relying on some of the unique identifiers that exist in the data from system to system like the DUNS number, or the definitive ID number or the zoom info ID or whatever the case.And as if you're sucking in data from all these sources, it can be it can be the the, the added value of the nice data starts to diminish with the added time and the marginal effort it takes to marry it all together and actually action on that data. And so if you've got staff, or you've got technology to help you merge all that data together, and then good for you, but if you don't, you know, and you get to scale across, you know, I guess at our peak this year, we were targeting 3200 accounts, I think we're somewhere at like 1800 accounts right now. And it kind of fluctuates for many reasons.But when you got that much data flowing through, you don't want to be worried about duplicate, you know, or bad data in your system. But in general, from a systems perspective, I'm using Salesforce, to house the account data and, and I was using a couple of different dedupe tools like Cloudingo and some other stuff to help me stay on top of the dedupe location. But at the end of the day, just got a lot simpler when I just went to one data vendor and use that one data vendor's unique identifier, to basically master the data. And I have a pretty deep understanding of MDM from a prior life Master Data Management so so I'm fairly familiar with the challenges and rewards of an MDM. But MDM is not a small project and Master Data Management is not a small project and I don't have time for that.So, I mean, having a CRM house data is I mean, you almost it's almost table stakes to have a CRM as a business, but highly recommend the CRM to manage the data. And then having a good Master Data Management Plan, like what is the unique identifier that you're going to use to marry all these accounts together. And in the world of ABM, a safe one is web domain, you know, because there's only one company that wants a website. But if you need to, you can go that route. But having a unique identifier to have a data centre makes it simpler, especially because at some point and moving beyond account data and you need individual data, and getting individual data is much harder to match back to a web domain. They'll, for example, like even email domains don't always match web domains, you know, because sometimes we're different. So it's very difficult to map a person to an account when you don't have a reliable, unique identifier. So as you... as you're either sourcing data or enriching data from other platforms. Having multiple sources adds complexity. So all I said, I would say simplifying, where you source your data and having a single source of truth, like a CRM, to have that data is very important. In the context of scale.Steffen: We talked about how to define the target audience on how to develop a target list. Let's talk about content for the campaigns. from your experience, what kind of content is most successful? Or does it depend on what tactical what channels you're using?Daniel: Well, I call me an idealist. But I think everything depends. You know, it all depends. But what I will say the most important and then is that I have learned over the last two years or so of doing this is our process of the process that we use, we have a we have a campaign brief, not not that groundbreaking, that says here's who we're targeting, here's what we're selling, here are the pain points. Here are the accounts, here are the campaign metrics that we're trying to hit. What's different is that, before we move anything past brief, we review the brief with our sales partners and sales signed off on it. So they sign off on, here's how many accounts we're going to engage. And here's the conversion metrics for hunting for and here's how many wins we want to get from this campaign. So they're part of that decision. And they are part of here's the value prop and the positioning points. And here the product for pushing for this, for this campaign, they are part of that.But before we ever even move out of the initial planning, and then after that, we adhere to a pretty strict buyer journey mapping process that says, "Okay, well for these for this product, these pain points and this sub-vertical and these, and these buyer personas, you know what, what content Do we need to create for awareness for preference or for education for preference for intent?" and sometimes maybe post-purchase will have some content to? And so we run through and swim lanes by the by identified persona or department, you know, okay, well, here's what the audience is thinking about and awareness, here's what they're thinking, with education, here's what they're thinking I'll preference 10. And we go through all that independent of any medium or any tactic or any form factor. It's just what are they thinking about? And after, after, we're addressing what they're thinking about? What is the intended response to that content? And we go through all of that before we plan anything. And once marketing has that, we then go back to sales, and we run sales through it, like, is this really how your customers think?And they go through and say yes or no, or this is right, or tweak that, or whatever. So before we even begin writing anything, or planning any tactics, sales, again, comes back to the table and says, Yes, we agree, yes, this is the right way to approach it, yes, you should create this. And then we also prioritize based on what they need... And so you know, we might prioritize content and the content in the different buying stages, based on what is needed the fastest. Or maybe we identify three things that would be awesome for awareness, but we really only need one to get started. So the big change was, for me, it has been sales buying in and signing off on what we're going to do and what we're going to make before we use to start. And then and then building.And then typically, depending on depending on what the buyer is thinking about and what they need to be informed of, at whatever stage maybe that fits have an infographic maybe that fits in a video, maybe that fits in a white paper, you know, whatever the case, and then if it's an infographic, then maybe that fits for LinkedIn. And if it's a video it may be that, you know, you know, that's kind of how we're thinking about it. And so, so usually I let the buyers, the buyers need, define what the content will be, and then what the content needs to cover defines what type of asset it is, and what type of asset it defines what type of tactic, we would run for that asset. So it's very much stemming from how we think our customers are thinking about our solution.Steffen: Really, you mentioned DSP, so demand-side platforms, to run display activities. Which other channels are a natural fit for ABM campaigns and why?Daniel: So, about ABM: I always basically say, imagine if you could say exactly what you want to the exact account you want. It was the exact role you want. exactly when you want exactly the way you would want to say it. I mean, that's basically what technology can do for you now. And so what would your win rate be if you could say exactly what you want every single time do exactly what you want to say it is you just how I typically explain it to sales partner who's never heard of this. And so that's one of the reasons why display a permanent display makes work so well. Because you really can say to the exact accountant exact role exactly how you want it when you want to say etc.So typically, like said, like you already said, we do the advertising, which includes the retargeting and some of the social-based advertising as well. And then usually we layer on heavily personalized, small-batch email emailing, you know, where we have a lot of rules around, you know, how many emails get sent to an account over a period of time, and how personalized how many, I guess, factors of personalization, there are usually four or five, and it's very it Who is it even coming from etc. So there's a lot of thought around the personalization of the emailing. And then there's generally speaking, an SDR calling outbound calling element kind of at the peak of engagement, there's some calling that gets triggered off. And then within that, we do like webinar type activity, where we targeted specific accounts and invite them to webinars and have had success. And we do do a lot of event activity, where marketing is trying to get people to basically sign up for appointments to meet with our people at different events. But it's all it starts with a target account list and looking for what events they're going to and then targeting them. So it's still a very ABM centric thing but usually, there's some event some webinar type, activity, kind of augmenting the calling and the emailing and the advertising. And we do a lot of content. First party research, a lot of PR, that we do like media, we released a couple of like first-party ebooks, like research in the market ebooks and things like that to, to inform the audience. So we make a lot of original content to do that, but that's typically what we're playing with a fair amount of press and media a fair amount of email and calling and advertising. And then and then peppering the events and some of that actually, and then the organic around it.And some of that actually flows backwards from we have a fairly involved campaign planning process that starts like... 2020 is planning is starting next month in September. So and we look at one of the hard dates on the calendar, which could be like national ice cream month because that's relevant to us. But it could also be, you know, the National Association of Realtors trade show, you know, say follow hard dates on the calendar. And then we work backwards from that for like blog topics and editorial content. And then that stuff gets fed into campaign briefs because we know it's coming and you know, so. So a lot of the reason why we use events and PR in the ABM is because of all flowing backwards from this kind of master orchestration around what's relevant in the industry and what we think our buyers are thinking about, you know, so that's typically the mix that we're using.Steffen: We talked about channels. Now, at any point, obviously, marketers need to evaluate the success of a marketing campaign, whether it's ABM or any other marketing campaign. What are the KPIs you recommend to the company that they should look at to determine whether the ABM campaign successful and what adjustments they need to make?Daniel: That's a great question. It's also a loaded question because it depends a lot on where you are organizationally in your ABM journey. And one of the biggest challenges that I think marketers face is that when you switch from a high volume lead gen approach, where you're used to having my target this year is 10,000 leads or whatever it is, when you switch from that to an ABM approach, and you say my target this year is 100. You know, and you go from 1000 to 100, or whatever, that is a very difficult concept to pass along up the chain, so to speak, you know, and I think there is, there is a lot of education that has to be done around the quality versus quantity shift and thinking to be able to pass that shift up the chain, so to speak. And so you find marketers who were somewhere in between a high volume and an ABM set of metrics making their way down that path. But you know, for me, and one of the things you commonly hear, I hear this all the time, is that you know, the alignment sales, marketing alignment is crucial for ABM, and it starts with aligning your metrics. That's what you hear a lot.And I don't necessarily disagree with that. I mean, I do agree with that. But organizationally, like the P & L level, getting alignment on metrics, is extremely difficult, which is one of the reasons why we move the alignment of metrics to the industry digital campaign briefs, and we do recurring reviews of the campaigns with sales to see where we're doing against those targets. Some of our verticals are more religious, and others are doing that. But that's the intent.And so, you know, aligning on, and I say all that to say that it comes down to In my opinion, what is the ultimate deliverable from marketing to sales? Like, what is the unit of output from marketing to sales? And depending on how your organization looks at that, and how, you know, where sales development reps and stuff like that report up to and, and how many sales guys you have, etc, at how the softer form of a lead? You are, you're delivering it... the answer changes a bit. But for me, the output of sales of marketing to sales almost always is or at least has definitely evolved to be a date and time appointment from a qualified contact at a qualified account.So if marketing can deliver a date and time appointment on to sales calendar, and we do that through Calendly, from a target account, and and a pre-qualified role at that account and says, I want to talk to you at this day, that time, then marketing has delivered its value to, to sales, and you know, from a demand gen perspective. And so a lot of what I am after is trying to up the output of those appointments. And, you know, so that's, that's how I'm basically measuring my output. And there's kind of there's tertiary benefits, I guess, that you can measure along the way, but, but that's what I'm trying to deliver. And but ultimately, you also need to know, okay, what was the success rate of those appointments? And how many opportunities are generated? And what was the win rate on those opportunities, and what influenced that, etc? And you can get getting it down a long rabbit hole on that. But ultimately, what is the output that sales wants to receive from marketing, and you might have different outputs for different sales teams, but having alignment on what that output is that they want to actually receive, and having as close to a uniform definition of that as possible, so that you can gear up your marketing factory, so to speak, to deliver those units of demand as best as best as you can, as efficiently as you can. I think it's crucial. And then the levers that I'm pulling on the marketing side of the things are said, "Well, I know what I want to target, or do I know who I want to target?" So if your goal is to have 100 targets, do you have 100 targets? And now that you have those hundred targets? Well, how many of them are you actually able to target like, because you have access to that account from contact information, or domain or cookie or whatever.So let's say you want to have 90-98 of those hundred that you're able to actually go get your message in front of and then from that, well, how many of those are engaging with your content, and let's say you want to have 95 of those, you know, engaging with your content, and then that you start looking at, well, who is engaging and at what level and we use aggregate lead scoring, that rolls up to the account level, give account scores, based on all these activities to show which accounts are most engaged. And then we start, you know, and that that list might change daily of who is most engaged. And so you have this, this pack of accounts that are kind of shifting in their order of engagement at the top of the list.And then you're trying to pick off the engaged accounts with other activities, namely, calling as I'm doing, but we also use email, you know, because they've achieved some level of engagement, and you're trying to basically siphon them off of the engaged account list and into your funnel. And so you're started firing off tactics to siphon those off and get them into your funnel. And a lot of times my challenges around, okay, now I know this account is engaged, and I start seeing who's engaged with these accounts and what they're looking at, but how do I get the sales team action on that as efficiently as possible, take advantage of all that data? And so you start measuring, you know, are you getting them over to sales? And are they converting from, from a lead to an African you are or whatever the case, then you start executing different things on that? So, generally speaking, I mean, I'm trying to make sure I have the maximum level of ability to to actually engage them and then maximize how many are engaging and then maximize, you know, the speed at which the engaged accounts to make it off of the marketing list and onto the sales list, so to speak, and then the rate at which sales are able to convert those to actual opportunities in the system, and so on down the funnel.Steffen: Daniel, thank you for joining me. It's, again, been a pleasure talking to you. Like last time, I still have a number of questions here. But thank you so much for sharing your knowledge of account-based marketing. If people want to get in touch with you or want to find out more about you. How can they do that?Daniel: The best way to get me is on LinkedIn. I'm always sharing and talking a lot about a being on LinkedIn. That's something I'm passionate about. So definitely get me on LinkedIn. I'm also on Twitter, but LinkedIn is my space.Steffen: Wonderful.Thanks, everyone for listening. If you liked it Performance Delivered podcast, please subscribe to us and leave us a review on iTunes or your favourite podcast application. If you want to find out more about some funny digital, you can visit us at SymphonicDigital.com or follow us on Twitter at SymphonicHQ. Thanks again and see you next time.
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