Benjamin Shapiro | The Only 3 Things You Need to Start a Podcast

Ben Shapiro is building a mini podcast empire, with the popular show, Martech, leading the way. The podcast is all about how industry leaders use marketing and technology to drive business growth.Not surprisingly, Ben has used some of those same techniques to garner 30,000 downloads each month. We talk about how he leverages podcast content in all sorts of ways to expand his reach, as well as…

• How you could start a podcast with equipment you have right now
• The top 3 reasons to have a podcast – and who should have one
• Who makes the best podcast guest – it’s not who you might think
• An effective engagement hook to keep your audience coming back
• And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in This Episode: www.benjshap.com and www.martechpod.com

Episode Transcript:

Steffen Horst: Welcome to the Performance Delivered, Insider Secrets for Digital Marketing Success podcast, where we talk with marketing and agency executives and learn about how they build successful businesses and their personal brand. I'm your host, Steffen Horst. Today, I'm having to have with me, Benjamin Shapiro. Ben is the host of the very popular MarTech podcast. In addition, he runs an agency that helps companies with brand development as well as growth marketing strategies. Ben, great to have you on the show.Benjamin Shapiro: It's exciting to be here, Steffen. Thanks for inviting me to be your guest.Steffen Horst: Yeah, no problem. Ben, why don't we talk a little bit about yourself? Tell us, tell the listeners about yourself.Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, absolutely. Where should I start? I guess you mentioned that I'm a brand development and marketing strategy, growth strategy consultant, but in a previous life I transitioned away from working at a big company. I was at eBay where I was doing business development, so a company of 13,000 people and I stepped away to launch my own startup. It was a startup called StrumSchool.com, which was a guitar lesson marketplace. And so I went from being at a company of 13,000 to a company of one, which taught me a tremendous amount about figuring out how to develop content and marketing strategies and a lot of product development and mostly it taught me what I don't know in the sense that I wasn't a great founder at the time and I learned a lot of hard lessons from launching my own startup. But, eventually decided that I was going to go back into marketing.I ran the marketing departments at a couple early stage startups and so I got a chance to focus on one vertical of business, which was my strong suit, finding customers, understanding their needs and then figuring out how to reach them and get them through a marketing funnel. And then eventually I left working at an early stage startup or multiple early stage startups, running the marketing department and decided that I was going to branch out on my own and so for the last three years, I've been running an independent marketing consulting practice, meaning that I am, again, at a company of one. I have a handful of freelancers and contractors that support me and I built out a consulting network.And then, in the last, little over a year, to try to build up the reputation and influence of my consulting practice, I launched a podcast called the MarTech podcast, which grew much faster than I ever could have expected and so now that's really my primary focus, is making content and talking to other marketers about some of the tools, tips, strategies and career development they have, using technology to drive marketing growth. So, a little bit of a roundabout path to becoming a podcast host and producer and I still do some consulting, but that's kind of my background.Steffen Horst: How did you come about to launch the podcast? There are other solutions businesses can look at and can consider to build their brand and attract clients. Why did you decide to do a podcast?Benjamin Shapiro: You know, it started out as a passion project for me and it wasn't the MarTech podcast, which was my first podcast. Truth be told, I went to my friend's birthday party and probably had one too many beers and was feeling a little, I don't know, a little loose, and got in the front seat of a Lyft on my way driving through the streets of San Francisco to get home and I sat down and talked to a man who was a defector from North Korea and his story was amazing. He grew up in North Korea, but his dad was Chinese and so basically he was left without a family. His dad abandoned them and his mom, I believe, passed away, so he decided that he was going to escape North Korea to find his dad and through a roundabout way, he ended up getting caught and then escaping again and somehow managed to become a refugee through the United Nations and wound up in Silicon Valley driving a Lyft.And so his story was just so profoundly amazing to me and he wanted to tell it to a larger group of people, that I decided I was going to record it and turn it and do a podcast. The show was called The Long Road Home and it was truly just an art project. It was passion project and something that, since I was consulting and I had control over my schedule and the flexibility that comes with consulting at times, I was able to produce this and learn about content production, audio content production. And so, fast forward six months or a year later, my consulting business had hit a point where I rolled off a couple of clients and I was just finding that my revenue curve was inconsistent.There would be times that I would have three projects at once and I would be working my butt off. And then there was times when I would have one or zero projects and I'd have lots of free time and I wanted to smooth that out, so I decided that I was going to start podcasting to try to do three things. One, do lead generation for my consulting practice. You know, build influence and awareness of my business to try to drive more leads, so I would have more consistent revenue. Two, I thought it would be a good positioning exercise if I decided I wanted to go back in-house and get a traditional J-O-B. And three, I thought there was an opportunity down the road if the podcast did well to monetize it and that's really how I got into the podcasting space.Steffen Horst: Interesting. Before we started, we talked about actually that you're pushing out quite a few episodes a week. I think it's five, every day one. How do you go about publishing that many? I mean, it must take a lot of time to find the people that are on your podcast, to prepare for the conversations, you know, to record, the after-recording so to kind of preparing for release and so on. Does it all fit into 24-hour days, seven-day week?Benjamin Shapiro: You know, the irony is my workday, I have a two-and-a half-year-old son and so I have to, along with my wife, get him ready to get out the door. He leaves to go to daycare 7:30 and then I have to go pick him up at 5:00, so I'm not actually putting in a high volume of hours. You know, I am sprinting throughout the day, but it's not like I am up early in the morning and then working until 2:00 a.m. because I have family obligations. I think that between consulting clients and content production and marketing and the ad sales that I'm doing for the MarTech podcast, it can seem overwhelming trying to record a lot of content, it is absolutely worth it. You know, I think that's one of the keys to growing your podcast and growing any sort of content business, is that you really need to be consistent and present in a channel for a long period of time.Originally, when I started the podcast, we were doing one episode and I broke the episodes into two parts. And so, I would do an interview and it would become two episodes and the reason why I did that is I wanted to put in a hook at the end of the first episode to say, "If you want to hear the second part of this conversation, you should subscribe to my podcast and you'll hear the second part tomorrow, so check back in." And really, it was an engagement hook. I was trying to get people to subscribe to the show to hear the second half of the podcast. And I wasn't just doing that like halfway through the show or abruptly end it. I would try to make the episode into two topics.So, for example, in this interview, I would have broken it up into, "We're going to hear about Ben's experience becoming a podcast host and in the second episode we're going to hear about his tips for growing a podcast." They're two discrete pieces of content, but with the same guest. And so my realization from that strategy is A, I was getting a high subscriber rate early on, even though we were only publishing two pieces of content a week, we were getting something like 80, 85% of our listeners were subscribers and B, because the content was relatively short, people were consuming 85, 90% of each episode so I'm like, "Okay, we're onto a format that really works.'So, over time, what I did was I tried to test, what happens if we publish two of these episodes over a week? So now I'm only doing two interviews, so an hour of time, it's not a ton, and that's almost a week's worth of content. That's four episodes right there. Eventually, we expanded into what happens if I do, instead of a 60-minute interview, a 90-minute interview, and I do 15-minute episodes, but I do five of them? So I can make five episodes with a 90-minute interview and I can publish it Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, all week long, and now I have a themed week of content and people just gobbled that stuff up.The shorter pieces of content ... For me, 15-25 minutes is a round what we shoot for. Some of our episodes go up to 45 minutes, depending on the type of content. But the shorter pieces of content, publishing them more frequently, means we're able to publish every day, but it doesn't mean I necessarily have to have hours of interviews that are built up. You know, I can do an interview for an hour and a half and be done with my content for a week. The other thing is, over time, I'm using MarTech tools. I have email templates that I'm using to do my outreach. I use a tool called Mixmax and I have a template that is my guest outreach template, which basically writes the email for me. And then I'm using a scheduler link. There's one through Mixmax. You can also use things like Calendly to help people block off time on your calendar.At some point, when I was publishing content consistently enough, probably six months into the production of the show, I started getting contacted by PR agents and so I actually don't do a lot of guest scheduling and coordination. There are some themed content, where for example, this week on the MarTech podcast, we're doing Women in MarTech Week, so I reached out to marketing executives that are female, you know, female CMOs and agency owners, to try to find good examples of women leaders on the show and so for those important themed pieces of content or series of content, I will reach out. But most of the episodes that I'm recording, either they're people that are in my professional network and I'm having conversations and saying, "Hey, you should be a guest on my show," or it is PR agents that are reaching out to me, saying, "Hey, do you want to talk to the CMO of this company, who is interested in being on your show?"So, the scheduling work has basically been taken off of my plate over time because the reach of the show has grown. But I think that the biggest lesson here is that shorter pieces of content that you're breaking up, is the best way to stay present and in the feeds on a regular basis and it also helps your content consumption and allows people to have a reason to follow you.Steffen Horst: That's good advice. I mean, you said now you don't have to really reach out to many people because people practically reach out to you and say, "Hey, can person X, Y, Z be on your show and talk about this?" But, going back to the beginning, what came first, identifying a topic for the podcast and then going out and finding a person that can talk about that or did you identify someone that you wanted to have on the show and then discuss with that person, the topic you two would talk about?Benjamin Shapiro: It's a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B. There are some people that were subject matter experts that I wanted to cover a topic because I thought it was one of the pillars of marketing early on. There are other people who I just thought were really interesting people and they were working in businesses that, maybe not everyone was thinking about as a channel that they could apply, but they were just fascinating conversations and so I'll give you an example. One of my first interviews was with a mentor of mine, Brian Bennett, who runs a video advertising platform called Egami TV, which is "image" spelled backwards and he's running a video advertising network for content publishers with millions of pages.His target market is relatively small and they have to be sort of big budget advertisers, for the most part. Not a marketing show that most people are going to be working in, but Brian's story is fascinating. He grew up and went to college and eventually somehow worked his way into international studies and he spent a lot of time in Russia during, I believe, the late 90s or early 2000s and just basically trying to understand the international business relationships between the United States and Russia after the Cold War. And, somehow, worked his way through ad sales at Yahoo to becoming his own bootstrap MarTech Company founder.So, I just thought that was an interesting story and on the flip side, one of the other first interviews I had, was with Kevin Warner, who's the CEO of Leadium, which is an email outreach and prospecting company. One of the most commonly-used services with lots of competition and so I wanted to talk to him about that space because most B2B brands are anybody with a sales team, just trying to figure out a way to drive scale through their lead generation and SDR teams. And so, Kevin's story is interesting, but it's more because of the channel that he was in and Brian's story was interesting because of the person that he is.So, hit-or-miss, sometimes the channel is interesting, sometimes the personal story is interesting and that actually led us into maybe the lesson here is that we have different content franchises on the MarTech podcast. We do subject matter experts, where we're interviewing somebody about a specific subject. We talk to some people about their career development and how they got from point A to point B and then people that are experts on a really interesting topic, like we did Paid Social Week, a week or two ago. You know, somebody who could talk to all of the paid social landscape. We do weekly topics as well and some product spotlights.Over time, we've developed these different content franchises and that gets into how do we produce so much content? We have five different types of interviews and the way that I'm conducting those interviews are relatively formulaic, so I don't have to do a ton of advanced prep, because I've done the same type of interview multiple times and I know the questions I'm going to ask, independent of the type of business that I'm talking to, the type of person that I'm talking to. So, that takes some of the mental gymnastics of prepping for a podcast. A way so I can just turn on the mic and go.Steffen Horst: I think that's great advice because I think many people that might say, "Hey, you know what, podcasts, I could do that." They might then struggle when they're in a conversation and say, "Well, what questions should I ask? Do I need to prepare? How much time is that going to take? Yes, it's an hour or how long you want to record, but then how much time is this going to take me before and after?" Which, actually, the after part is interesting, I think. I assume you have a team of people that help you prepare the content. You know, clean up the audio and then posting, et cetera. But for someone who starts out who doesn't have a team and how much time do you think did it take you in the beginning to, after you recorded the episode, to prepare them for publishing?Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, so I guess I'll frame this with I consider myself to be a solopreneur and by that, I mean I am one person running a company of one and I work with a handful of contractors and freelancers. Some of the relationships I have, have lasted for years. They are an important, critical piece of my business, but they are part-time and they have discrete functions. They are very much contractors that are working for me because they are running their own businesses as well. And so, I absolutely have a team of what is it, like six or seven people working on my podcast at any given time, but initially I started off trying to figure out how to do every piece. And so when I first recorded my first episode, I went through and did the editing and I said, "Okay, this is how I want the content to sound," and I found a professional editor and said, "Here is an example of how I want the edits to be done. Here is my template, please follow it."And, for course, the editor was like, "Look, I can do a better job editing than you're doing, though I understand what you're trying to accomplish because you went out and figured out what was the interview style." I gave him something to react to and try to replicate. Then, and early on, I was the one who was getting the transcriptions and publishing them to my website and over time, I said, "Okay, this is what we need to do once we have a piece of audio to get a transcription and to post a page on my website that makes it relevant." And so I found a consultant or a freelancer to help me with that production piece.Eventually, we moved from not just transcribing the interviews, but to turning the transcriptions into more blog formats and so we had to find a writer and so, moral of the story is, whether it be content editing, content production, refactoring, or even our social content syndication, I start off figuring out what the template is and once I figure that out, I try to document everything I'm doing. I'll create a Google doc saying, "Step-by-step, here's what I'm doing to perfect this part of the process," and then I take that document and I go onto Upwork and I find somebody to help me do that and I'm taking advantage of some of the economics of geography. Whether it be people in eastern Europe or the Philippines and then some of the people here are domestic resources in the United States, I'm trying to find people that are going to be working on very concrete tasks that can do them repeatedly, taking advantage of their best skills, whether they're writers or product managers or editors or designers, and I am carving out a single piece of the process and having them replicate the ame template over and over, which keeps our consistency high.Steffen Horst: What do you need to get started with recording a podcast? What is the minimum someone needs to have to get started? Are there any ... What's the technology, software, et cetera?Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, start lean. That's the beauty of podcasting and sort of the development of user-generated content, like you don't have to have a $100,000 recording studio to make a monetizable podcast. What you need is a laptop, some sort of recording software where you can record. My advice would be to record your guest and your host in two separate channels. Go to Upwork and find an editor. You can find editors for $15 an hour, so if you're recording an hour-long episode, plan on spending $50 an episode. I use ... What is this thing? Yeti, I think it's a blue microphone. I believe it cost $150. I got it on Amazon. I got the black one because I think it looks cool. A mic stand, a pop filter, and a UB cord. My editor is cleaning up my audio, but I'm not doing anything scientific.I don't have any sort of mixer or complicated hardware. I'm literally just plugging in a USB mic. I would look up one that is a cardioid mic which means that it just focuses on one direction of audio, so when you speak into the mic, you have to speak into the part that is recording, which gets rid of a lot of the background noise. So, as long as you have some sort of program where you can isolate your audio from your guest's audio, you need a USB mic. I use Zoom Conference and a tool called Audio Hijack to separate my guest and my host audio channels and my editor cleans up the files and sends them back to me. We use Dropbox to share the files.And then to publish it, I'm using a service called Art19, but I don't advise people use that when they're just getting started. I advise that they start with a service called Libsyn, L-I-B-S-Y-N, I believe, and it's somewhere between $20 to $40 a month to get your podcast content into every major app store. I use Art19 because we are selling advertising and we do something called dynamic insertion, which is we take all of the old advertisements out and whenever we have a new podcast sponsor, we're able to replace all of the ads in our old content with new ones so we can sell our entire catalog of advertising, instead of just the current episodes. But Art19 is a wonderful platform when you get to sort of the monetizable stage.But, really, what you need more than anything is differentiation. You need to understand what you're going to ask your guests and I would actually create a template and build a content franchise where you're going to do the same type of interview over, and over, and over again, so you can do it in a scalable consistent fashion. You don't need a ton of software. You don't need a ton of hardware. Between your laptop ... Let's say $200 of recording gear and $75 worth of software between Mixmax and Libsyn as a host and Dropbox, you know, you're talking about $100 a month and $200 to get started. It's not a very expensive way to produce content and that's one of the reasons why I was attracted to it. It's not video, which requires a lot more hardware and a lot more cost in terms of editing.Steffen Horst: Yeah, and you get this content out relatively quickly, right? I mean, companies these days have some options to build their brand. One other topic is blogging. We might have a chance to talk about that later on, but you can write a content piece and then you basically rely on Google or any other search engines to pick up the topic and then hopefully you get to kind of move up in the search engine rankings, but that's something that will take time for you to see results in regards to traffic to your website. What I feel based on what you just said, from a podcast perspective, you can set this up. You can create a content piece, within a day, two days after planning and the next day you can launch it and it's out there for people to consume.Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, I mean, the workflow, if we were starting from scratch right now ... Our show is a little different because we have recorded more content than we publish. So, right now, if I were going to record and episode, it would be published in two months from now and that is purely because we have a lot of content recorded. We've built up an archive which, if you're going to create a podcast, I would not start publishing until you have your first 10 episodes recorded. You want to have a month of content built up so you're not constantly under the gun to produce content. You can be a little bit more strategic about who you're reaching out to at first and make sure that the content quality is high.If we were starting from square one, let's say it takes a week to schedule someone, a week to two weeks to schedule someone, you'd have to go through the calendaring process. Then once you have the episode recorded, you're looking at three to five days of editing time, depending on the length of the episode, so now you're two to three weeks in and then once you're publishing the episode, that's great, but you're not going to have a following. So you need to start thinking about how you're going to take that content and how you're going to share it in appropriate places, so can you get your guest to talk about it on LinkedIn and Twitter or Facebook, wherever they have a network?So the work doesn't end once you publish your content. Eventually, you will build an audience and when you share your content with enough people, it starts to become viral, but publishing is only half of the game. There is then the content syndication and promotion piece, which is what really helps you to grow your audience at first.Steffen Horst: And I think that's a good next point to talk about. How do you ... And I think you just recently did a podcast ... Kind of an answer, you know, question ask and answer episode, where someone asked you, "How can I make my podcast more popular?" But how would someone in the beginning go about to make that podcast known to people out there? What did you do in the beginning and what channels did you use? Did you spend money to promote it?Benjamin Shapiro: Yes, all of those things. I think that first and foremost, understand who your audience is. I was publishing the MarTech podcast. So I was going to, when I initially launched the podcast, I sent an email to all of my friends, people in my personal network. I went through LinkedIn and created my list and shared my content, just the launch announcement, with marketers. And then that's how I got my first 200 followers and it might not have even been that many. It might have been 20 for all I know. I consistently published and so I would promote my content on LinkedIn which, for my show, it's a professional show. I felt like that was the right social network and we did some stuff on Twitter, but it really didn't have a major effect for us, but I started seeing more of a signal and some syndication on LinkedIn.I positioned the show to be in a growing medium. The MarTech community is growing, as a whole, and there wasn't a ton of MarTech content out in the podcast landscape, so people that were looking for the key word "MarTech" or "MarTech podcast," found our show relatively easily. So there was some, whether you call it app store optimization or SEO strategy built in there. And then I did paid promotion relatively early on. The service I use is a platform called Knit, K-N-I-T. It is a dynamic insertion podcast advertising platform, so you can create an audio ad and insert it into shows like the CNN Network of shows, Anderson Cooper, Jake Tapper. There's other shows that are not necessarily about politics, but comedy and business, but these are really sort of premium pieces of content with a large reach.And so I started advertising at the end of other podcasts, which is called post-role spot for a dollar CPM. A dollar per thousand podcast downloads and I started getting subscribers to my show for somewhere between a dollar to a dollar and 50 cents at first and now that I've scaled that channel, it's down to 75 cents per download. So, I was investing a couple hundreds of dollars a month. You know, I think I spent $10,000 total in year one in Knit podcast advertising or somewhere close to that, and that drove almost all of my first 10,000 subscribers.Steffen Horst: I mean, there's a lot of statistics or analytics available from the different podcast platforms about who your listeners are, age range, what topics are listened to predominantly. How much time do you spend going into this data or into these backgrounds, to look at the data to define this topic did well, this topic didn't do well and really resonating with a certain audience around a specific topic better? Does that play a role in your planning for future podcasts?Benjamin Shapiro: I probably should. I don't do a lot of retrospective analysis on content. A lot of that is instinctual. There are three data sources that I look at to try to understand what the growth and health of the podcast is. I look at, first off, my hosting stats which gives me the number of downloads, what episodes are the top performing episodes and what geographies are downloading the podcast in. So, I get a sense of which episodes are performing well. The other thing I look at is my Apple podcast stats, which gives me a sense of how much of the content my audience is consuming and are they subscribing. What that tells me is am I producing content that people think is interesting and do they like the theme of the show enough to follow along with it? We get somewhere between an 85% to a 90% subscriber rate and people listen to anywhere from 75 to 95% of each episode, with the exception of if we go over 45 minutes, it drops down closer to 65, but we rarely ever do that.What that taught me is there wasn't a spec topic we needed to cover. When we cover a broad range of topics, people are interested in the show so we try to keep it diverse and interesting. People never really know what they're going to get, in terms of what the topic is, but they know that the format of content is something that they really like and then we've been consistent enough that people are interested in subscribing, so we get a lot of people that are following with the show. The average listener to our show listens to ... I think last month it was an hour and 23 minutes of content a month, so they're listening to, if they're 15 to 20-minute episodes, they're listening to at least an episode a week, which is how I think about it.And the last source that I look at to understand our audience, and this is really the problem with the podcast space, is when somebody becomes a subscriber or listen to your show because it's happening in Apple's platform or Spotify's platform, you don't know who they are. And so I look at the people that are reaching out to me on LinkedIn because we're producing a professional show, as an indicator of who is following and who is listening to my show. I don't do any LinkedIn advertising and so I'm looking at those job titles to understand who my audience is and so we've been able to triangulate that from my show, we're not necessarily getting the early career entrants, the like entry-level people that are trying to learn marketing 101. We are getting decision-makers. We're getting operational directors and executives at technology-driven companies that are listening to the show.So, you know, it might be the CMO of a growth-stage tech startup or the director of demand gen at a larger company, but that's how I figured out who my audience is by looking at signals outside of the podcast landscape and trying to figure out how they figured out who I was and why they were trying to engage with me.Steffen Horst: And as you launched the MarTech podcast as a means of demand generation for your consulting business, I think those are the people you want to talk to anyway, right? The more junior people might not be the decision-makers at the brands that you might want to work with.Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, I mean, I think that the show is sophisticated enough. It's really a question of who we're talking to and so if we started talking to early career entrants, who are the entry level marketers, we would be describing things like, here's what a CPC is versus a CPA versus a CPM. We don't get into that sort of foundational level of understanding marketing language. We talk sort of past that and so the people that we speak their language, they're the followers of our show and they already have some marketing experience. Not to say that we don't want the people that are early career entrants to the show, I'm expanding our podcast into a podcast network and we're launching a show called The Finding A Job Podcast, which talks to people that are early in their career to try to give them actionable skills for how to find the right job for them and how to understand what the various career paths are. So, we're producing content for that audience, but it's not what the MarTech podcast speaks to.Steffen Horst: That makes sense. Ben, I think this has been a great conversation. I learned a lot, in addition to what we already do here and as I said, it's been great to see how your podcast has grown over the last year. I think you have over 100,000 subscribers if I read that correctly?Benjamin Shapiro: Not quite that many. We hit 30,000 downloads last month and I know we had 175,000 total downloads, so I wish it was 100,000 subscribers. That's our goal for the year is to get to 100,000 downloads a month.Steffen Horst: Okay, okay, well then I talked about the goal already and I cross my fingers for that. Ben, if people want to find out more about you, what should they do or maybe are you even interested or have a story that you would love to tell on your podcast, how can they find you?Benjamin Shapiro: Yeah, before I answer your question and I will, I think one of the things ... For the people that are interested in learning about how to develop a podcast or hearing the story of how my podcast has grown, at the end of every month, we do a monthly recap and so you can go back and listen to our monthly recaps for the 13 months we've been publishing our content and follow along with the story of our podcast. Obviously, I would love for you to listen to every episode, but there's something like 150 episodes or more that we've published. But, if you really want to learn about what we've tried, how it worked, and everything that happened along the ways, there's 13 episodes that are an average of like 15 minutes each. Go and listen to those.To find the show, you can go to martechpod.com or you can go to my consulting website which is benjshap.com, B-E-N-J-S-H-A-P-.-C-O-M and there's a link to the MarTech podcast on there. And there's contact us forms everywhere, so send us an email through the website, send me an email through the website or you can reach out on any social media network, LinkedIn, Twitter, my handle is benjshap and happy to chat with anybody interested in learning about the podcast space or anybody that needs some marketing help.Steffen Horst: Wonderful. Well, thanks everyone for listening. If you liked the Performance Delivered podcast, please subscribe to us and leave us a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast application. If you want to find out more about Symphonic Digital, you can visit us at symphonicdigital.com or follow us on Twitter @symphonicHQ. Thanks again and see you next time.