On this week’s episode of the Performance Delivered Podcast, we speak with Devin Schumacher, the founder and CEO at SERP, a digital marketing company that helps businesses grow using the internet. Devin is now a recognized search engine optimization expert and digital marketing consultant.

We discuss Devin’s entrepreneurial roots, his time as a DJ, and how he has set and surpassed revenue goals. He has set up detailed systems and processes to scale his own companies. This allows his team to increase not only their clients’ leads, but their clients’ revenue, and now he teaches others how to do the same in SERP University.

We discuss his formulas for growth, as well as:

  • Scaling revenue and planning the personnel to handle the workload
  • Best Hiring Practices for expanding your team virtually
  • Developing systems and processes to hire effectively
  • Maximizing your presence on paid advertising platforms
  • Client acquisition and predictable growth
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:



Steffen Horst: Welcome to the Performance Delivered. Insider secrets for digital marketing success podcast, where we talk with marketing and agency executives and learn how they build successful businesses and their personal brand. I’m your host Stephen Horst. Today, we’re going to talk about growing a digital marketing agency. Here to speak with me about the topic is Devin Schumacher, who is the Founder and CEO at SERP, a digital marketing company that helps businesses grow using the internet. Devin is a recognized search engine optimization expert and digital marketing consultant. Devon, welcome to Performance Delivered.

Devin Schumacher: Thanks for having me, Steffen. Glad to be here.

Steffen: Devin, before we start talking about how you know how to grow a digital marketing agency and how to overcome the growing pains that any business faces when they grow at a certain speed. I want our listeners to get to know you a little bit better. Tell them about yourself. How did you get started in digital marketing?

Devin: Sure. So my story is quite strange, I think. But I would imagine that most people are. I graduated with a degree in finance from the University of Colorado, Boulder in 2009. And that was right when the recession hit. And jobs were very difficult to come by. So I ended up working on the floor of a bank. And it wasn’t exactly what I wanted to do, clearly. So after a few years, as the economy picked back up, I was just saving money and figured it’s time to branch off. I met a very interesting person when I worked at the bank, from Germany. And we developed the friendship and decided that we were going to start a company together. And it was a food supplement company ecommerce based. So I quit my job. And that was really the first entrepreneurial venture, I would say that I went through my responsibilities including branding, logistics, and a few other things non marketing related. And the company had an amazing product. And it had everything, all the right keys to success, but no marketing. It flopped, basically.

So from there, we decided to try a couple of things. One of them was like a location based app for the iPhone. But everything that I did, pretty much ended up lacking the visibility and the traction required to grow. So long story short. During that time, I was also DJing and producing music and just kind of having a good time. And really spending a lot of that time figuring out how to promote myself as an artist. And next thing, you know, that I know I’m pretty much spending all my time on marketing. And other people are approaching me to help them grow their music brands. So we were doing things like Instagram automation, Twitter, automation, SoundCloud, automation way back before it was a thing. Basically, it doesn’t work anymore now. And that kind of kicked me off into the World of Internet Marketing. And I found search engine optimization and a specific group around 2015 or 16, I think. And the rest is kind of history from there.

Steffen: Interesting. So you are basically a self taught digital marketer?

Devin: I’m a self taught Digital Marketer with a lot of courses and mentors along the way.

Steffen: Yes. So when did you decide to branch out? And obviously, you know, as you just said, You started off in search engine optimization. When did you decide you know what, there are quotes, there’s more than just that there’s paid search that’s paid social, there are other digital marketing channels. When did that become interesting to you?

Devin: Somewhere between getting shiny object syndrome for the first time and necessity clients asking for other services that we did an offer. I would really say that the group, the SEO group, I’m doing like air quotes right now the SEO group I was born and bred in. They were purebreds like SEO organic traffic free traffic on the right like very proud of that, as I’m sure that some people can relate to their specific area of digital marketing. So I was a diehard SEO for a very long time. But as I started to work with more businesses, and realize the omni channel approach that effectively you need to have more than one strategy, especially considering where you are in, you know your business. Then I just began to branch out and learn other things and add on services to the agency, which, you know, may or may not have been a great idea actually looking back on it.

Steffen: So what was the point? What was the point when you decided, you know what, I don’t want to be a lonely soldier, like a marketing consultant, I actually want to build something, I want to found an agency and I want to be able to help different clients and I want to be able to grow as a business.

Devin: Yeah, so my original goal, when I was doing SEO, I was actually in music production school. At the time, when I started doing SEO, I had a job working for a guy, this old dude, like in his late 80s. And he basically sold asphalt to the government and I was a glorified Secretary making about $1,000 a month, and going to music production school, and then learning SEO. And my goal at the time was actually, once I started to get into the World of Internet Marketing, my goal was to make $3,000 a month, so that I could, you know, have this passive income stream and continue to DJ, as I continue to get clients though, the workload just became, you know, overbearing, there is a ladder, if you can imagine, like a staircase. And if you put values on the staircase, and the first step is like, you know, nothing, you’re making zero dollars a month. The second step is you’re making about 15,000. And about every time you double zero, 15, 30, 60, around 100K to 250K. And up, there are different scalability challenges. And right around the 10,000 to $15,000 a month mark, is when you start to realize I can’t do this on my own, if I want to continue to grow.

Steffen: Yeah, I mean, that, that makes a lot of sense at the end of the day, just so many hours in the day, that, that you can work while you could you can increase your hourly rate, right? If you’re really good. You have a lot of people that come to you and say, Hey, you know what, Devin, I love what you’re doing, can you spend more time on our business? Or can you take us on as a client, you can increase your hourly rate. But at the end of the day, there is an end to that scale, right now. That’s when, when you have to go and look at who am I going to hire to help me with the things that I have to take care of? So how did you approach it? How did you make the decision? Who is the person that you need next? that can help you get to the next level?

Devin: Yeah, so I mean, for agency owners, depending on what you sell, depending on what service you provide, whether that’s SEO or websites, or Facebook ads, or Google ads, or whatever the mechanism is for growth that you’re providing. I think that you can go from zero to maybe 15 or $30,000 a month, just having very good systems and a virtual assistant. And it took me a while actually looking back on it, it sounds so obvious. But it took me a while to really understand the difference between having VA team members and like people on your team who are going to come preloaded with information. So the way it happened for me is that I had a couple clients and I began to systemize. Everything I do, I’m pretty left brained to begin with. If you’re familiar with the Myers Briggs test, I’m an INTJ.

And everything I do, I like it to be in systems so that I don’t have to repeat things over and over again. So I made a lot of slps, I made a lot of systems, and I brought on the first VA hire, and she’s still with me here five years later. And then I made a friendship with another guy that was in one of the same groups that I was in. And we decided, he said, Hey, are you, you know, I have this opportunity to buy a dental SEO company? Do you know anyone who would want to buy it? Right? I was pretty active in the group. So you know, people hit me up for various things and ask questions. And I said, You know what, like, I kind of want to buy it. I don’t really have enough money at this particular time. Like, what about you? And he was like, well, maybe if we pulled together we could. So we started looking at the deal. And what we realized is, you know, we can pull this off. So we actually purchased a dental SEO company, and then combined slowly. The clients that I had as an independent consultant with the clients he had as an independent consultant. And that really became the start of the partnership, which is now Servco.

Steffen: So you mentioned virtual assistants, how do you use virtual assistants to support you in your day to day.

Devin: So the way that we use virtual assistants, it depends on the size of the company that you’re trying to run and where you’re at. I find the best success when you think of it kind of on a scale. So the amount that you want to pay for a virtual Assistant, if you want to pay lower for a virtual assistant, you’re going to have to have better systems, they’re going to have to be more specific. And that person is going to be less of a thinker and more of a Doer. You can also have, you know, virtual assistants that are a little more integrated into your company and begin to understand what’s going on. And that’s kind of what happened with us, the first person I hired really was just somebody who would follow our processes exactly. And pretty much checkboxes for lack of a better word. But as you know, she began to understand more and have an interest in what we were doing. I began to trainer, and she’s now more of an integral part of the local SEO departments still. So it depends on what you need, you can have a virtual assistant that really just is somebody who follows a very specific set of processes. Or you can have somebody who is virtual and assisting you, but is really more of a team member. So it kind of depends on what you need them to be doing.

Steffen: Based on what you just said, Devin, so using them to follow processes that you have set up. Is that correct?

Devin: Right.

Steffen: Okay. So in what areas? Do you develop processes? And when did you start off to bring in the first person? Did you do that before you brought in the person to tell our listeners a bit more about that?

Devin: Yeah, so I’ll tell you the way that our agency uses systems and processes, and there are a lot of different ways to do this. There’s different things people call them process protocol procedure SLP, the way that we’re set up, and the way that I see things is that you have projects, so for example, a client will come to you, and they’ll want a website build, or they’ll have an SEO campaign. And that’s a project. And we use a project management system to manage that project, as there are typically multiple steps involved. And there’s typically multiple people who need to be involved in that project, somebody to communicate with the client, somebody to do the tasks of the project, potentially even somebody to manage that everything is going to be on time.

So we use a project management system for the overall project, I kind of think of it like a roadmap. If you have an SEO campaign. For a local business, it’s pretty much the same process, every time from start to finish, there’s 100 things that you need to do in order, let’s say, that’s the roadmap, that’s the project. And that goes in your project management system. So if you have that roadmap, and there’s 100 tasks to do, for example, one thing that you might want to do is optimize their Google business profile. Or one thing you might want to do is analyze their site map and look for opportunities for a better site structure.

Those are two examples of tasks, those things can be pretty complex on their own. So what we do is we have our project management system roadmap, and every single task has a corresponding SLP, or process that whoever has ever worked on that task is supposed to click on that link, and run the actual step by step process. And this is the way that we set up things so that we, in an attempt, I would say, to deliver the most high quality, consistent experience possible. And when you are a subject matter expert, as I got better at SEO, I wanted things done my way. But like you said earlier, you reach a certain point of capacity where you cannot do the work and the strategy and the sales and manage the clients altogether. So for me, I started building processes from the very beginning, just because I wanted to do things the same way every time. Now, if you make your processes good, your SRP is good, anybody who’s running the task can really get the same result that you do, as long as they are trained. And they’re following the roadmap, and they run the SMP.

Steffen: That makes sense, that makes total sense. But it’s I mean, you talk about virtual assistants, but at the end of the day, those are still experts, because they have to have a certain understanding of what they’re doing. You’re not picking someone who has never heard of SEO to do the task. I mean, there might be some tasks that, you know, you just go into the system or mess up, pull information from a and then look at this, and then tell me what the numbers are, etc. I mean, that’s, that doesn’t require much thinking. But you know, when you want someone for example, to to do a competitor analysis the way how you want to do it, right, they still need to understand the concept of why you’re doing it in SEO in order to deliver a product or, or, or information that are relevant and useful to your client.

Devin: I would say that, um, anything that you do more than once that you want done the same way, does not require an expert to do it. So take your example because this is very common. This is a very common thing that I see with agencies. You could hire a virtual assistant. And they basically, they don’t have to know anything about SEO. But if they follow our roadmap, and they follow our SLP, it’s so detailed that they’re going to know exactly what to do. And it’s the results going to come out the same. That being said, if you do want somebody to start being more strategic and thinking about things, your processes don’t have to be so specific, specific. So there’s always a trade off, right? If you want to hire a thinker, somebody who’s coming preloaded with knowledge, you don’t have to have your SLP be 100 steps. But if you want somebody who is going to be less expensive, you don’t have to spend as much time training them, then you just have to have a more detailed sob. And that’s one of the considerations of when you grow. It’s harder to hire somebody who comes preloaded with a lot of skills and information when you don’t have the revenue to support that.

Steffen: That makes a lot of sense. How do you know we’re talking about people obviously? How do you forward plan when it comes to when to bring in the next person?

Devin: Yeah, I think it depends on, you know, the revenue step that you’re at. So thinking about that staircase, again, from zero to 15. Really, there’s a specific set of challenges. And I wish I wrote them down, because I don’t really want to misquote them, but I have a pretty good idea, just you know, from the top of my head going through it over the last three years, from from zero to 15. Your only real problem is proof of concept and sales, like all you really need to do is focus on how to acquire clients, you can acquire a couple clients and get to $15,000 a month fairly quickly. And then you can figure out how to fulfill it from there.

That’s going to be your proof of concept. And it’s going to be your base, you’re probably going to need yourself knowing what to do. And then one person that you can either train and spend a lot of your time training them on that can then turn into systems to help you go from 15 to 30. And once you start getting to each step, you start to have to hire different types of people and have different challenges. So to give you a very specific example, where we are at right now, our agency was powered for a very long time on myself and my business partner sage, he would pretty much handle the account management. And I would handle managing the product projects and doing a lot of the work with the help of one virtual assistant, because we had such sick systems like very, very good systems. But we’re getting to the point now where we have to start hiring people who are a little more autonomous. And that can bring in skills to the agency that we don’t have that we can’t teach. And here’s a perfect example.

Neither of us have a background in website development. So you know, I know how to use WordPress, I built a lot of our site. And I can do a lot of things. But I’m not a coder. So as we began to get more website management clients and clients that we build websites for, I built the systems, I built the slps. And I built the training, but because I wasn’t I don’t have a background in it, my systems were only so good. So as we were bringing on more web builders, and they were following my esops websites were getting built, but they would load slow, they would break like it wasn’t done, according to the best coding standards. So we had to bring in somebody who knew things that I didn’t know, or had time to teach myself to then go out and build those systems on those slps. So as far as understanding who to hire Next, I think you really have to understand what your revenue level is, and what the next revenue level is from there. Right. So wherever you’re at, you have to know what are the upcoming challenges, and then be able to sort of brace for that, so to speak.

Steffen: Yeah. So you, you said that you started off with, you know, organic search. So SEO, your business and then over time you expanded your services, because of you know, clients came and said, Hey, can you help us? I’m just making things up, paid search, paid social, or anything else, right under the decision process starts like, Am I going to move into that area? Although that might not be my core experience? And if so, what’s the opportunity there? At the same time, you said, You know what, I wish we wouldn’t have gotten into certain services. Talk about your, your thinking when it came to that you had clients that came and said, Can you help us with ABC or maybe even you said, you know, what, I see an opportunity to actually move, for example, into paid search because it’s so tightly knit with SEO, that we should actually provide that service.

Devin: Yeah, no, I mean, this is the key for growing an agency and it depends on a couple things. So Remember, I came in just sort of haphazardly starting with SEO, right? It’s not like I had, I didn’t go to school for web development and hat and work at a web agency and decided, now I’m going to, you know, go do this on my own, I was sort of already an entrepreneur, and I fell into marketing into a specific discipline. So for me, it was kind of like, well, I’m sort of learning everything anyways. And if a client is coming to me and asking for something, and it’s, it’s new business, like, I will just figure it out. The problem is that if you want to scale and you want to grow fast, you need to niche. And I don’t mean just sticking to one industry, I mean, sticking to one service.

So if you know exactly what you want to do like it, let’s say, for example, you worked in an agency before you were their Facebook ad buyer for a few years, and you’re like, forget this, I’m gonna go do my own thing like Facebook all the way. If that’s your scenario, I would turn down pretty much everything else, until you hit one of those revenue levels where you have enough people to support being able to handle those services without it derailing you and your focus for us. Pretty much. Anybody that came to us, we were like, Alright, yeah, we’ll like we’ll offer it and figure it out. And you’re sort of growing horizontally at that, at that stage, right. Like, we had an SEO client. I don’t remember who my first SEO client was, but I would imagine it was probably like a local business, like a chiropractor or something like that. And maybe if they wanted a website, then you can kind of outsource that and get somebody to build a website for them.

But we decided that we wanted to build everything in house and have a little more control over quality. So we would get like a chiropractor came to us. And then we would get a referral from somewhere else for a business that was like an e commerce store. And even if they were both on SEO, we’re talking about two very different types of campaigns here. And the more difference that you add into the services, you’re providing your complexity to fulfill those demands is exponential. At that point, you need way more systems, way more people, way more understanding of how it works, and it kind of becomes a mess. So if I were to do it over again, I would have stuck to one thing. And I would have stuck to one niche, one like one industry and one service, and just went full force on that because you can take, you can take one service in one industry, to eight figures way faster than you are going to be able to get to seven figures, if you’re saying yes to everything.

Steffen: I think that’s a great point. I think people underestimate the fact that when when you kind of move out of your comfort zone or out of your core areas of expertise, and you’re trying to basically offering a service that you haven’t offered so far, it’s not only that you all of a sudden have to kind of increase in knowledge in order to provide that and then consultant that service. But it probably will also take you longer to execute to deliver that service, which means it takes away time from the other services, which you already have figured out and where you have a process in place. And you can be extreme, you can do those in your sleep.

Devin: Yeah, and I’ll give you the perfect example. So we started with SEO, basically ranking websites so that they can get more organic traffic from search. And it works very well for local businesses that have been around for a bit. Like say, for example, like a chiropractor, or a dentist comes to me and it’s like, hey, I’ve been a dentist for like 15 years. But we don’t get any traffic from Google. And oh, you know, we have 1000 patients that we’ve developed over the years through networking, or you know, growing or pounding the pavement or whatever, right, like they already have an established base, they already have some customers, but they’re ready to grow. So it was a great thing to do for them.

Because you can get them ranked and bring them a ton of traffic in a six to nine month period. And during those six to nine months, they’re not gonna go out of business paying for your marketing, seeing no results because they already have an established customer base. And so like everything we did revolved around ranking to get customers. But what didn’t really click for me for a very long time was the strategies that we were using the expertise that we were building to grow other people’s businesses didn’t work very well to grow ours. So like to do SEO for your own agency and rank for something like SEO Pasadena, you don’t really get that much business for it. But it was the only expertise that we knew. So we didn’t really start growing predictably, until like year three or four really, really this year is when we kind of cracked the code on how to predictably grow our agency. And it was because of a fundamental misunderstanding that the skills that we’re developing and the service we’re providing to grow other people’s business is not the best way to grow our business.

Steffen: That’s an interesting point. So let’s talk about that. And sales. You know, that’s, that’s, I mean, you can have great processes, you can have great people, if you can’t get new clients and new customers and you’re not going to grow. So expand on that a little bit what you just said, you know, we cracked the code, I don’t expect you to give away, you know, your, your, your, your secret source, but talk about a little bit more how, what were the learnings? And how did you change your approach so that all the sudden, you saw a new business come in?

Devin: Yeah, I’ll give away the secrets. This formula, you know, it’s coming out right now, here it is, you have to find a predictable way to grow. The only thing that really kept me awake at night for the last four years, or whatever it was, you know, our agency was growing, but I never really could wake up and say, like, I know how many customers we’re gonna acquire tomorrow, or this month, because it was so you know, miscellaneous, sometimes they would find us from SEO, every once in a while, sometimes we would get a referral here and there. And, you know, luckily, we just continue to slowly grow over time, but it was slow. When you figure out and when you have enough money, that you can start actually advertising, that’s when you can predictably grow.

And this goes back to you know, what revenue level are you at? Do you have enough money to start spending too, on advertising to acquire clients? Or do you not have enough money and you need to go out and do outbound sales stuff, and LinkedIn outreach and cold calling, and all this weird thing, these weird things that like, don’t really take as much money, but they are more work and they’re less predictable. If you’re ready to actually grow, if you have the revenue to support it. If you figure out how to run advertisements, if you figure out how to run Facebook ads, basically as what we do to acquire clients, you can grow and scale enormously. And we are the problem we’re having now is that we’re finding it difficult to spend enough money on Facebook, they like sometimes it can be difficult to continue to spend money on Facebook because of the way that their platform works. But the problem we have now is not getting clients, it’s how do we spend more.

And that’s a really good problem to have. And it’s something I didn’t figure out for a very, very long time. But now, we know that if we put $1 into the machine, like imagine a vending machine, you put $1 in and you get $2 out, we know exactly how much when we put it in how much we’re going to get out. And that’s because of advertising so we can predictably acquire clients. And we can predictably grow. And the only reason we can do that is because of the niche, we focus on selling one service, we focus on selling to one industry with all of our ads. And all of the other services that we’ve developed now are sort of ancillary, and can be upsells later to help increase lifetime value of the customer, and provide additional growth opportunities for them. But we advertise for one thing to one type of customer. And that’s it. And that’s the secret, if you can figure out how to do that, and you have the money to spend and scale up your home free.

Steffen: I think that’s a great point. Many companies are complicated and I think especially in a very competitive and busy agency market, right, everyone wants to ideally offer all their services to everyone who might be interested in but, you know, because there’s focus missing, that very seldom is successful. And it cost you even more because you’re literally spraying instead of targeting. Right. So I think what you just said makes a lot of sense. Devin, last question I have for you before we unfortunately have to come to an end here. He said, you know, you’ve got to have a certain amount of money left over at the end of the day to start advertising. And now from an agency perspective for you, in particular, what did that mean? Did you say, you know, what we know we have $5,000 over after I pay myself that put a little bit into the savings account, air quotes. How much did you start? And what is what is too low in that regard? From your perspective?

Devin: Yeah, you know, I’m not actually sure because by the time we started advertising, I think we were at around like $60,000 a month in revenue. So we didn’t really have a cash problem. But I think you know, if you’re if you’re starting out or you’re getting going, it depends on your personal situation, right? If you have a job, and you have income, what’s your personal overhead, you have savings, you don’t have to have a lot of money to get results. You can if you have a if you have a profitable model, right, like if you know what the lifetime value of your customer is, or if you know the amount of what you charge for your particular service upfront. Then all you have to do is spend a little bit to try and figure out how to get ads to work for you. And then understand that, you know, in the beginning, I’m going to lose a little bit of money, but it’s in your control.

You can spend a couple thousand dollars and waste a couple thousand dollars to figure it out and acquire one client. And then you’re starting to now build the formula for success for yourself, you don’t have to start with an enormous ad budget by any means. You just have to figure out what I am comfortable losing, right? If you’re going to go to Vegas, you ideally pull out only the amount of money that you’re willing to lose. It’s the same thing with paid ads, it’s just that in Vegas, the odds are never going to really change for you. In paid ads, they’re going to change for you, they’re going to get better and better over time to the point where you almost can’t lose. And that’s the way that you do that is number one, figuring out how to use the platform. But that’s probably the least important part, everybody overcomplicates that, the what you want to do is you want to make your offer and you want to make what you provide better than your competitors.

So like you said, it’s already going to be competitive enough out there. If you spread yourself, then now you’re just competing with a larger pool of people, and you’re not doing very well doing it. What we like to think of is if you imagine a line, and on the left side of the line, there’s like a zero and on the, on the right side of the line, there’s a 10, from zero to 10. Most marketing agencies, what they’ll do is they will sell a service, for example, Facebook ads to generate leads for business businesses. And that’s like a value like a one, right? You have solved one problem for that business you generated them leads, they’ll usually hand that business a spreadsheet of leads saying here you go, here’s your leads, go call them.

Let’s say that you’re doing this for dentists, that’s what we focus on a lot, we do a lot of dental marketing. If you hand a dentist, a spreadsheet of leads, and say go ahead and call them. Even if you generated them 100 leads, like, they’re not going to call very many of them, which means they’re not going to get that many customers, which means it’s a ticking time bomb to win, they’re gonna fire you, if you want to win. In the agency game. If you want to win with paid ads, you need to figure out how to take your service from one step zero to one all the way as close as you can to attending meetings, let’s imagine that 10 is you running their business for them. You’re responsible now for ROI. Most agencies were responsible for leads. But if you can figure out how to make yourself responsible for their return on investment, they’re never going to fire you because you are getting them the result that they want.

So we started instead of saying, okay, we’re just going to generate leads for a dentist, we started saying how can we take that from a one to a two, what can we do next? That’s going to bring them closer to victory. And we were like, you know what we’re gonna do, we’re gonna follow up with other leads for him. Because these people aren’t following up with their leads very well, they’ll call him once or twice. And you and I both know, with cold traffic, you need to call these people 10 1520 times before they’re going to be receptive. So we started to follow up with their leads for them. Now we’re at two. So now we’re thinking, how can you take us from a two to a three? How can we do the next thing that they’re not going to do?

Right? So you generate them leads, you’re following up with their leads? Now leads are coming in. And they’re like, well, these leads, you know, I can’t sell them, they don’t have any money. So we’re like, okay, you’re probably not very good at sales. Let’s see how we can sell these leads for you. So you develop systems or products for them that help them sell better. And you continue on that path to figure out how I can? How can I make your business better? How can I learn your business better than you? The business side of what you do? So that I can ultimately be responsible and call myself an agency that’s going to generate you revenue, not leads. And when you do that, you can basically say, Well, I can charge more for my product, which means I can spend a little bit more on advertising, which means I can acquire more clients, they’re going to stay with me longer. And now I can outspend my competitors on Facebook.

Steffen: I love what you said, then I think what you said goes beyond just what normal agencies do. You know, they think about leads, we send you 100 leads, whether you convert them or not. It’s completely up to you. And the reality is a lead is not a lead, right? Did lead have different quality, you know, people might be in different mindset, they might not be ready to buy. But all of those things impact whether a lead becomes a client or sale at the end of the day, I think by you guys helping your customers to overcome challenges that I believe a lot of those smaller companies have. as you rightly said, you’re adding value and you making yourself indispensable basically, for them. Um, you know, Devin, thank you so much for your time. And thank you for joining the performance level podcast and sharing your thoughts on how you know how to grow a digital marketing agency. If people want to find out more about you and your company, how can they get in touch?

Devin: Well, you can always go to our website at SERP.co But you know, I would invite you to friend me on Facebook, Devin Schumacher and join the free Facebook group, SERP University, where we teach a lot of the stuff that we do and talk about and I will be continuing to add more content to that group to help as many people as I can get started making money online, growing an agency or creating some kind of passive stream of income, whatever that goal might be for you.

Steffen: Wonderful. Thanks, everyone for listening. If you liked the Performance Live podcast, please subscribe to us and leave us a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast application. If you want to find out more about Symphony Digital, you can visit us symphonicdigital.com or follow us on Twitter at Symphonic HQ. Thanks again. See you next time.